WTG No Knock

[Maverick]

Wasn't that easy in my jurisdiction either. Be that as it may, I'm bowing out of the thread, it's not going to be worthwhile to continue it.

[Elfie]

Magistrates, or judges will sign almost ANYTHING... especially after hours. If we needed an after hour warrant we had to drive to the on call judges house... maybe his honor was 3 sheets to the wind, busy playing cards, or entertaining a hooker... after a quick review, its raise your right hand and swear the affidavit is "true and correct", and that's it.. we had legal permission to boot down your door. I cant ever remember one being denied.

Its scary easy.

Maybe thats as good a reason as any to get rid of *no knock* raids.

[Chairboy]

One year anniversary to this no-knock screw up:

http://tinyurl.com/277lez

Some interesting polling data in the article:

Nearly two-thirds -- 65.8% -- said police should not routinely use such tactics. With minor variations, that sentiment held across geographic, demographic, religious, ideological, and partisan lines.

Opposition to the routine use of SWAT tactics for drug law enforcement ranged from 70.7% in the West to 60.5% in the East. Residents of large cities (60.7%), small cities (71.2%), the suburbs (66.7%), and rural areas (65.0%), all opposed the routine use of SWAT tactics.

Among Democrats, 75.1% opposed the raids; among independents the figure was 65.5%. Even in the Republican ranks, a majority -- 56% -- opposed the raids. Across ideological lines, 85.3% of self-identified progressives opposed the raids, as did 80.8% of liberals, 62.9% of moderates, and 68.9% of libertarians. Even people describing themselves as conservative or very conservative narrowly opposed the routine use of SWAT tactics, with 51.5% of the former and 52.5% of the latter saying no. Among African Americans, 83% oppose the practice.

It's not a partisan issue, it looks like there's widescale disapproval of this as a tactic across different political lines,.

I sincerely hope that a national review of this tactic produces a change, and soon.  SWAT=Military tactics, and the military has no place in civil law enforcement, it's designed for combating enemies, not keeping law.

EDIT: vBulletin keeps messing up URLs for me, inserting HTML break elements in them.  I've replaced the link above w/ a tinyurl link to get around this.

[Maverick]

You know looking at the source of your information there  "StoptheDrugWar.org"  I have a real problem with the veracity of the "polling" that they are claiming. What is the definition of "routine" and how were the questions posed? By carefully wording a poll you could very likely have folks voting in favor of hitler or some of his policies. I am very very leery of a biased poll and frankly don't have much confidence in them unless I can see the demographics, the questions used and the analysis of the results.

Frankly your premise that SWAT = the Military is flawed.

[Chairboy]

To be clear, are you stating that you favor no-knock SWAT style raids?  You feel they are an effective and properly used tool in crime fighting?

[john9001]

Originally posted by Maverick

Frankly your premise that SWAT = the Military is flawed.

that is correct, SWAT is no way as good as the military.

Military=professional soldiers.

SWAT=cops playing army.

[Chairboy]

Well, I guess english grammar is kinda complicated, so I'll clarify what I wrote below.  

When I said "SWAT=Military tactics, and the military has no place in civil law enforcement, it's designed for combating enemies, not keeping law", some of the readers in this thread saw "SWAT=Military" and stopped parsing the sentence at that point.  Traditionally, you would continue reading the sentence, at least long enough to see that there's another word attached, in this case it's 'tactics'.  So, what I was saying was that SWAT teams use "Military tactics", not that they are actually "the military".

I apologize if the advanced language skills required to read and comprehend the sentence created discomfort.  Me try talk simpler for better make clear idea.

[Rich46yo]

"""""'
Anytime someone steps over the red line on the flight line of an AFB you can expect that to happen. Accidentally or not. There are specific entry points on any AFB flight line and you better be smart enough to use them if you don't want to end up flat on the ground on your face, cuffed with a loaded M-16 pressed tight to your body.

That Air Force Security Policeman did exactly as he had been instructed to do, there was no lack of judgement in his case."""""""

                      USAF security police dont carry 16s with one loaded in the chamber. Unless you actually saw him jack a round in then odds are there wasnt one chambered. Even still he broke procedure by pointing the weapon at a cuffed suspect prone on the ground. Even worse by touching him with the muzzle he gave away a tactical advantage. SPs are trained to keep a distance from an offender or suspect.

                   We were once convoying weapons, of a type I cant and wont name, and a truckload of maintenance guys thought they'd mess with the young SP stopping the traffic at the intersection as the convoy was approaching. So they started inching towards me in their truck despite my yelling at them to halt and creeping into the intersection.

                 Well everyone of them ended up face down on the concrete flex-cuffed with numerous automatic weapons aimed at them, with, rounds actually jacked. The SGT behind the caper found himself a few stripes less too.

               Missiles, special weapons, back them Bombers loaded hot, and all kinds of high end weaponry. USAF SPs cant afford to play around.

[john9001]

so did your convoy of nukes get through?

[wulfie-away]

Originally posted by Chairboy
When I said "SWAT=Military tactics, and the military has no place in civil law enforcement, it's designed for combating enemies, not keeping law".

Well you said it, so I'll ask.

What is your military background, and what SWAT-type LE units have you been a member of and/or trained with.

No need to talk simple with your answer.

-Mike/wulfie

[Maverick]

Chairboy,

Read what I posted, then if you want to have a discussion with me about it, comment on what I actually posted. Don't read between the lines, don't think I am using the same assumptions you are. Look at the actual words and comment or ask questions about what I said, not what I did not say.

Your assumption that SWAT = military tactics is still flawed. They are quite different. Having been on both sides of that particular fence I have a better understanding that there are significant differances and that the use of similar looking clothing and or equipment does not negate those differences.

Now unless you can discuss things in an adult manner without the personal attacks or innuendo's the discussion, such as it is, is over.

[wulfie-away]

Originally posted by john9001
that is correct, SWAT is no way as good as the military.

Military=professional soldiers.

SWAT=cops playing army.

It depends on the department. There are some SWAT-type LE units that are very, very good. The problem is that there are nowhere near enough potential top-tier 'Special' LE Officers (the kind you would ideally man a special unit with) to put a special unit in ever city and county in the USA. When almost every city and county wants a special unit, you are going to come up short in terms of manning and cadre somewhere.

As for 'cops playing army'...not really. LE special unit guys have some radically different ROE which makes their job very, very hard.

-Mike/wulfie

[wulfie-away]

Originally posted by Maverick
Chairboy...

My guess is that Chariboy's personal experience and actual knolwedge of the subject(s) both equal 0 (ZERO).

But he can sure sound like he's trying to be witty. That's gotta be worth something.

-Mike/wulfie

[bongaroo]

Originally posted by lazs2
not one person has ever been proven to have been executed unfairly and yet we have thousands, maybe millions of people who protest the death penalty on the off chance that even one person may be executed unfairly yet no one seems to care that the police are gunning down citizens in their homes after breaking into them in the middle of the night.

lazs

I agreed with you on most things till this.  I care about police gunning down innocent civilians but I do not believe in the Death Penalty.

Here, this guy got accused of arson and put to death.  most of the evidence used against has been proven to be wrongly interpreted by many arson experts.

an innocent man put to death.

[Rich46yo]

Originally posted by john9001
so did your convoy of nukes get through?

                   Whats that?

                   And yeah, the convoys always get thru.

[QOUTE]Originally posted by lazs2
not one person has ever been proven to have been executed unfairly and yet we have thousands, maybe millions of people who protest the death penalty on the off chance that even one person may be executed unfairly yet no one seems to care that the police are gunning down citizens in their homes after breaking into them in the middle of the night. [/B][QOUTE]

                        Yeah Laz were just gunning em down by the dozens every night.  I try and get at least 5 a night.

                      A P.O I know very, very, very, very, well is currently home injured from smoke inhalation trying to crawl into a fire to get an old lady in a wheelchair out of it. 2nd time this P.O. has almost been fried in a fire. The first time he couldnt get thru the flames were so fierce and we had to stand outside while a 6yo burned to death.

                   This time we got the old lady out and that P.O. has a little more free time to play AH for awhiles.

                   None of that is news tho is it? Nor was the thousands of acts of selfless bravery LEOs in the country did today, or will do tomorrow.  Not like a tragic mistake that ended with a innocent citizen dieing. Imagine how those coppers feel right now?

                   I never forgot that little girl. And they are never going to forget this lady. Killing someone is bad enough but doing it by accident is like a nightmare. Ive known a few whov had to live with it and they are never the same.