Author Topic: People need to learn when THEY ram .  (Read 2715 times)

Offline eilif

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People need to learn when THEY ram .
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2006, 02:19:38 AM »
Origionaly posted by DREDIOCK
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only have a collision when BOTH ends see it

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IMO I like the idea of collisions. But if it cant be more consistant They shouldnt have it. or better yet as I stated before.

How is that conistent?  You would sometimes fly through your enemy if they didnt see you, and vice versa.

HTCs' system works.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2006, 02:22:10 AM by eilif »

Offline Donzo

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« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2006, 02:24:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
If your plane touches any enemy ac at any time YOU did the hitting.  

Why should the other guy take damage if he avoided it?


Bronk



This is not an accurate statement.
 
Here's why:

I'm flying along straight and level and you come in from my side.  I do nothing and you fly into me from my 5 o'clock position and pull up at the last second.  On my front end I see you hit me, on yours you do not.  So I get the "I have collided" message and you get the one stating I collided with you.  

In this simple example I did not do the hitting as you stated.  My front end only saw the planes touch.  This does not mean that I did the hitting.

This is not a gripe about the collision model, just pointing out that it's not as you say it is.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2006, 02:30:30 AM »
Why should the other guy take damage if he avoided it?
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How the heck are you supposed to have a mid air collision bewteen two planes if only one plane is involved in the collision?  this feature needs work HT.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Donzo

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« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2006, 02:32:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Why should the other guy take damage if he avoided it?
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How the heck are you supposed to have a mid air collision bewteen two planes if only one plane is involved in the collision?  this feature needs work HT.


You asking me?

Offline WMLute

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« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2006, 02:43:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Donzo
This is not an accurate statement.
 
Here's why:

I'm flying along straight and level and you come in from my side.  I do nothing and you fly into me from my 5 o'clock position and pull up at the last second.  On my front end I see you hit me, on yours you do not.  So I get the "I have collided" message and you get the one stating I collided with you.  

In this simple example I did not do the hitting as you stated.  My front end only saw the planes touch.  This does not mean that I did the hitting.

This is not a gripe about the collision model, just pointing out that it's not as you say it is.



In this simple example you hit him.  Your front end only saw the planes touch.  And it DOES mean you did the hitting.



Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Why should the other guy take damage if he avoided it?
====
How the heck are you supposed to have a mid air collision bewteen two planes if only one plane is involved in the collision?  this feature needs work HT.


Actually, two planes WERE involved in the collision.  The two on your Front End.

You see two planes, and the guy you are in a fight with also sees two planes.  So in a 1 on 1 fight, there are really 4 planes involved.  The 2 on your end, and the 2 on theirs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2006, 02:46:05 AM by WMLute »
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Offline Yeager

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People need to learn when THEY ram .
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2006, 02:49:14 AM »
so then..... when I shoot a guy down, only the plane I shot down on my end actually gets shot down?  wtf over?
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline SkyRock

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People need to learn when THEY ram .
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2006, 03:33:01 AM »
SkyRock<-----owns Lute, Bronk, and Yeager!:aok

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"

Offline mussie

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« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2006, 05:15:57 AM »
yet again gents I will point you to this



(Correct me if I am wrong HT) In the above the Red pilot is responsible for the impact even though the blue pilot flew into his flight path...

and to clarify Its not the pilot who SAW the collision

It is the client machine (your or the other guys pc) that DETECTS the collision...

you dont have to see youself hit the guy below you for it to happen on your PC....

« Last Edit: December 31, 2006, 05:18:47 AM by mussie »

Offline mussie

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« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2006, 06:16:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
Wow, this is like high schoolers arguing about quantum physics.  Understand the problem before you start complaining about the solution.


Are you saying that I have it wrong Benny ?

Offline Benny Moore

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« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2006, 06:23:47 AM »
Wow, this is like high schoolers arguing about quantum physics.  Understand the problem before you start complaining about the solution.

Let me put it this way.  Instead of "you are responsible for the collision," a better phrasing would be, "had what occurred on your front end happened in reality, you would have collided."  Does that make sense?  Moreover, had what occurred on the other guy's front end happened in reality, he would not have collided.

"Seeing" and "responsibility" really have nothing to do with it.  It's not an attempt at dealing justice of some sort, it's simply simulating what would happen under the circumstances each pilot sees as accurately as possible.  It is physically impossible, at least with today's technology, to perfectly simulate a two-player collision over the Internet.  Having it so that what happened on each front end happens on that front end is the best compromise by far.  The only viable alternative is no collisions, which is a lot more unrealistic.

The argument I seem to be hearing is, "If it comes from underneath, there's nothing I can do to avoid it.  Therefore I shouldn't be 'punished' by a collision when the other guy isn't."  Well, if it came from underneath in a real aircraft, there's nothing you can do to avoid it, but you're still going to collide.  The only difference in the simulator is that the other guy goes unscathed because, on his front end, he did not collide.

In summary, in a perfect world the result of an online collision would be both planes being damaged.  This is impossible.  The next best thing is having only the aircraft which would have been damaged in reality, given the circumstances occuring on his front end, actually be damaged in the simulator.

Offline Benny Moore

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« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2006, 07:07:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mussie
Are you saying that I have it wrong Benny ?


No; I am sorry.  I was not addressing you.  There was a bit of difficulty involving an accidental incomplete post.  I'm deleting it now, leaving the full one, which is pretty redundant because it's already been explained by quite a few people.  Maybe if enough people rephrase it ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 2006, 07:09:40 AM by Benny Moore »

Offline mussie

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« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2006, 07:28:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
No; I am sorry.  I was not addressing you.  There was a bit of difficulty involving an accidental incomplete post.  I'm deleting it now, leaving the full one, which is pretty redundant because it's already been explained by quite a few people.  Maybe if enough people rephrase it ...


CC on that Benny... For a sec there I thought I might have it wrong...

I had issues posting also, strange that...

« Last Edit: December 31, 2006, 07:33:06 AM by mussie »

Offline mussie

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« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2006, 07:32:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
The argument I seem to be hearing is, "If it comes from underneath, there's nothing I can do to avoid it.  Therefore I shouldn't be 'punished' by a collision when the other guy isn't."  Well, if it came from underneath in a real aircraft, there's nothing you can do to avoid it, but you're still going to collide.  The only difference in the simulator is that the other guy goes unscathed because, on his front end, he did not collide.



MANY months ago,  I dove on a spit from REAL high in my P-47...

I realised that I was going WAY to fast and started to pull up...

I got a collieded message, I knew that I had hit the poor soul from above...

I did not "see" it. but if we had external view on fighters I would have seen the collision.

On my FE I hit him... No let me put it this way On my PC a collision occoured....


Offline Mugzeee

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People need to learn when THEY ram .
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2006, 08:47:34 AM »
Heres a novel idea.

Drop the "Collision message" altogether.

I know it was HTC's intention to answer the collision question via the message.

But it obviously doesn't make any difference as far as argument is concerned.


Now we have the "collision" message as (Proof) which only fuels the fire of the constant arguing about it.

It was a much happier place when a player complained about a collision and the community tried to explain it on Ch 200 for 3 mins and finally it just faded away.


Ever notice how the arguing lasts longer now than it did before the "Collision" message was added?"

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2006, 09:53:19 AM »
I don't care if it LOOKS like he flew into you. Because on his end it will probably look like he was 100-400  away.  What people have to realize when I say if you see it  you collied it means if your front end sees it.

People its not a hard concept. You are flying to what you see and your opponent is flying to what he sees. They are  2 slightly different things.

The thing is it is very difficult to want to collide . The only way it might be possible is nose to nose and the 2 parties DON'T turn at all.

I'll give you a great example.
3 nights ago AKDog and I went nose to nose. Him in a 262 me in a 163.
He fired first hit me and I started to lose control .  Due to the high closure speed he couldn't get out of the way in time. We both got the "you have collided with xxx" We both had a good laugh over it and went on having fun.

My problem is people who don't get it when they do the ram and think its the other guys fault. If you get the orange text well guess what you did the hitting.
I don't care what it looked like ,where the other guy was ,or what angle he came in from. YOU should have gotten more separation. Guess what the other guy did and didn't see it, or YOU would have gotten white text "XXX HAS COLLIDED WITH YOU.".


Bronk
See Rule #4