Author Topic: The Imbeciles have spoken.  (Read 2053 times)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2007, 10:16:16 AM »
kieran...  things could have been done better.. we even had a commitee to make suggestions.

Soooo.. what is the democrat solution?   How would they proceed... cutting funding doesn't seem like much of a solution to me...

So lay it out.   What should we do?   The sadman had been working on nukes in the past.. he was invading his neighbors on a regular basis and gassing whole groups of people...  he wanted more control of the oil resevoirs and was willing to do anything to get it.    He killed 300,000 or more of his people in a reign of terror.

Now... what should we have done about all that?

My point is that Bush was between a rock and a hard place and that he made the best decison.. but like all politicians.. he can't run a war.   shoulda done a better job... not sure anyone coulda done a lot better but... he coulda done better.

Now we are stuck where we are.   Where do we go from here?   It is easy to criticize but I want solutions.

Will the democrats come up with a solution and then take responsibility for what it brings?   Hardly.. much easier to sit on the sidelines and criticize the details.

I have no respect for them... they had no plan when it all went down and they have no plan now.

lazs

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2007, 10:25:16 AM »
Lazs,

Let me say that I am not necessarily against the war. I am becoming more and more anti-Bush, because he is showing he cannot lead. The choice you are presenting me is to ride the rail car to hell with Bush or side with people with no plan of their own.

Tough choice...

But are those really my only options? What's wrong with pulling the reigns in on Bush and saying "Before we give you another nickel, how 'bout you show us a real, workable plan to conclude this effort?" or "Before the money flows again, show us evidence that you are paying attention to and learning from your generals in the field, and are actually using their input to modify your plans?" Seems like that would be a fair thing to do.

I mean, look at it. How many of our leaders are resigning in disgust over the conduct of this conflict? How many of them have to come out and say we are screwing up before we finally say to ourselves, "Hey, we're screwing up!"

Democrats will serve their purpose one way or another. Either they will come up with a plan of their own, or they will force Bush and Co. to come forward with a realistic and doable plan for Iraq.

So... what's your thought? Think Bush is doing a great job? Think we just need to ride it out?

Offline john9001

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« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2007, 10:33:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Tough choice...

Democrats will serve their purpose one way or another. Either they will come up with a plan of their own,


the democrats do have a plan, RUN AWAY RUN AWAY.

and of course TAKE BACK THE WHITE HOUSE.

Offline Donzo

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« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2007, 10:43:24 AM »
In typical bas Bush fashion, I seem to recall it was the dems that said we needed more troops on the ground early on in the conflict.  Using "statements" from military leaders saying Bush was screwing it all up by not having more troops over there.

That was then, this is now.

Now Bush has a plan that he did not come up with alone.  Hell, increasing the troop level was even a recomendation in that Iraq Study Group Report.

It comes down to this....no matter was Bush does it will always be wrong in the eyes of the dems.

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2007, 10:46:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
If the region were controled by one or two countries like Iran... say they controlled 80% of the oil... what do you think the price at the pump would do?

lazs


So you are for sending these kids to die for the price of oil? That's ****ed up
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2007, 10:47:29 AM »
kieran... I thought we just had a commitee that investigated the whole thing?

Seems that they recomended that we send more troops to hot spot areas and especially bagdad?

seems like Bush just fired the general and got a new one.   Seems Bush is doing something while the democrats.... well...  What are they doing?

I don't think a really detailed plan would be more benifet to us than to the enemy do you?   Should we have published the D day invasion of normandy before we spent all that money on it?  talked it over so to speak?

I like the way the country is going... the war not so much..  we need a good general who can get things done... we need to get the iraqis to get in gear..

in retrospect we should have left some of their military and police in place... we did that with germany's SS scum and it worked but...

Can you imagine the field day the democrats and weepy talking heads woulda had over that one?

lazs

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2007, 11:49:53 AM »
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Hahah, anyone afraid of Iraqs military post-Gulf War knows nothing about military matters.

According to the late Col. David Hackworth, morale and training in the post Gulf War Iraqi army was very low.  While on paper the army seemed to have teeth, in reality it was 1/3rd of it original size.  He cited the example that the tanks the Iraqis were using were not even bore sighted.


I'd like to see this as well.

Claiming the tanks were not boresighted is kinda hard to swallow. You see that is a routine crew function and does not require much in the way of equipment. The only way for an outsider (non crewmember) to confirm that is to jump in the tank and check it with the equipment in use. I find it very difficult to believe that Hackworth did anything like that. Especially for all the tanks that were taken out during combat.
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Offline WhiteHawk

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« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2007, 12:31:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
whitehawk... what do you object to?

maybe you are very passionate about getting out of iraq.   I don't believe that most people are.    I was around for another war that was unpopular by the polls...

People were indeed very passionate over it... not just the news.. the people..  the people rioted and demonstrated... not just some sad crazy lady and a few dozen others but millions.    That was passion.    I don't see it here.. it is like..."should we quit spending money on this loser of a war or not?"  so far as the polls are concerned...

If the region were controled by one or two countries like Iran... say they controlled 80% of the oil... what do you think the price at the pump would do?

If the poll question was now... "are you willing to see a doubling or more of gas prices in order to get out of iraq."    What would the polls say?

How passionate would the people who are "against" the war now be?   Would the talking heads have the sway over them that their pocketbooks would?

lazs


At least you admit that its an oil war and not some 'free the poor iraqi man from the mean ole terrorist' gig.  So game over.  You talk about democracy and social programs for the poor iraqi man like a good little Bush stooge, and I will talk about the endless Oil war conspiracy theory.  I passionatly object to the endless Oil wars that are going to take place and I want the troops out.  I dont trust that bush or cheney or any of the other idiots are out for the interest of the american above the interest of the companies that they represent.  If I beleived that there was no way that the US could develope and distribute an alternative fuel if they would spend the money and manpower that they spent and are going to spend in the oil wars, then maybe I would feel different.

Offline Dago

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« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2007, 01:05:49 PM »
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The Imbeciles have spoken.


Actually, I thought this was an accurate assesment of the last election when voters allowed the handsomehunkocrats to take over the Congress.
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Offline VooWho

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« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2007, 01:56:36 PM »
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Originally posted by Donzo
In typical bas Bush fashion, I seem to recall it was the dems that said we needed more troops on the ground early on in the conflict.  Using "statements" from military leaders saying Bush was screwing it all up by not having more troops over there.

That was then, this is now.

Now Bush has a plan that he did not come up with alone.  Hell, increasing the troop level was even a recomendation in that Iraq Study Group Report.

It comes down to this....no matter was Bush does it will always be wrong in the eyes of the dems.


Your so right.

The Dems will do any thing just to get office even if it means bashing Bush when they said "Send more troops Mr.Bush" I done listening to all parties. There all just wanted power and don't care about what the American People have to say.

I truly think the polls about staying or leaving Iraq should be based on the everday soldier over there. The soldiers are the ones that know 100% what goes on. Then the Politions know about 90% what goes on. The media knows about 85% what goes on and the American people only know 10% what goes on. The desicion to stay or leave should be based on the soldiers. If soldiers don't like the war then why don't they have a mass protest. Its not like the government would hang half the army then just start a draft. They would listen to the soldiers.
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Offline Kieran

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« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2007, 03:33:20 PM »
Not to put too fine a point on things, but consider there's a timing issue involved. More troops in the beginning to do the job is smart; throwing more troops into the cauldron now may not be. Shock and awe warfare works best when it is overwhelming from the beginning. We had the intitiative, but lost it. Can we regain it? Almost certainly, but will sending 20,000 more troops do it? I doubt it.

The numbers Bush critics tossed out before the war were roughly double what Bush said was necessary. It turns out the critics were right. Now, because the job wasn't done properly in the first place, it may take far more than that number to get it done. Do we have enough troops to do that? Again, I doubt it.

Toss on top of that Iran. It's becoming clear it's something we may have to deal with inasmuch as Iran is spoiling for a fight. We may not get to choose this fight either, because Iran knows our pants are down. You ready for a draft? 'Cause that's what it's going to take to get our troop strength up enough to have wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Iran.

Finally, there's Bush himself. If he was a strong leader, say a Bush Sr. or Reagan, I'd have no worries. Bush Jr. just doesn't have the brains to see his way through this mess. He's now totally reactive, rather than proactive. I have to admit reactive is better than isolated and inept, but what is he reacting to? Polls. Dammit.

It's come to the point where everything the man touches is turning to mud. I don't want my daughters fighting for a man that has no idea how he wants to do the job. Maybe the next guy/gal will do better, I don't know, but I have completely lost hope Bush can find his butt, much less realize a stable Middle East.

Offline Shamus

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« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2007, 04:07:29 PM »
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Originally posted by VooWho
Your so right.

 If soldiers don't like the war then why don't they have a mass protest.  


Because at best they would lose pay and grade, at worst a general court.

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Offline john9001

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« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2007, 04:09:10 PM »
""cauldron""?  
Shirley you exaggerate.

Offline VooWho

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« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2007, 04:56:58 PM »
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Originally posted by Shamus
Because at best they would lose pay and grade, at worst a general court.

shamus


Even if half the army did? Would they even do that cuz if they did then they would have to do a draft? This would be something to think about.
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Offline Kieran

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« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2007, 05:07:41 PM »
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Originally posted by john9001
""cauldron""?  
Shirley you exaggerate.


You been reading about the number of car bombings and subsequent killings? No, I don't exaggerate.

And stop calling me "Shirley".