Sunday Night Ops... so what did you think?

[Imoutfishing]

Again all do respect,

No kermit I will not.  I was clear as I intended to be with your tactics and there results.  

It just doesn't matter at the end of the day.  

I know you are well versed in flying a bomber.  You know what I'm trying to say.  Nothing else needs to be said.  

 
Daddog great bullet points!  I agree 110% with all of it.  I'm sorry we missed the B24's in the mission but that would have ended up messing up the formations a touch anyway so I guess with the mission planner the way it is it turned out for the best anyway.

MGD

[Krusty]

How about disabling formations? That can actually be fun, to run a close-knit group of bombers, but no formations. Also means you can jink more (no drones to lose) -- Ju88s were noted as quite manuverable.

How about '42/'43 channel region, spitVs, hurr2s, Ju88s, 109Fs&Gs, maybe 190a5s? Maybe a few 190a5s and spit9s for each side (keep 'em rare)?

[Krusty]

Oh, and what time are they being run next week? I didn't catch them this time so I don't know.

[FiLtH]

I like the idea of having formations off. That would do a few things.

 1. Make smaller groups for fps
 
 2. More dead guys to be gunners

 3. Get rid of the horrid drone warp

[Kermit de frog]

I do not understand your behaviour towards me in this thread.  I understand an argument is uncalled for, but can we at least have a discussion?

You asked for people to give thoughts, ideas or new concepts and I've done that.  I'm no different than the rest who have posted in this thread tossing up ideas at you and anyone else who can make a difference.

I guess what you are trying to say is, do not comment on how to make the last mission better, but what kind of mission I'd like to do with a bunch of people with little overheard so that walkons may get involved very quickly.  If this is the case, then why only me when everyone else seems to be on the wrong topic?

Yes, I did have a good time, and thank you to those responsible for putting this together.

[Roscoroo]

I aint mad at ya Kermie ... I'm listening ...

As for manifold at 40 ...sometimes that is alittle fast for others to keep up . and we see  that 35-40 buff formations is alittle over welming on that particular terrain ... we Have better luck with the BOB terrain for that many buff sets .

[HB555]

Kermit,
you stated:
 "HB555, I've had to turn a group around for 2 squadies that werent' able to drop once, because they had to man their guns. Myself and the rest slowed down and did a full circle. Yes, we lost a few more planes, but everyone had at least 1 plane left in the end. We also got to land kills, each and every one of us. By going slow, we were able to do things smoothly as a group. By going smoothly, we were effectively going fast as a group. Any faster and it wouldn't have gone as smooth thereby causing us to go slower to stay smooth as a group. What are you going to do with this info HB555? I'm curious. As you can see, you can have 2 different outcomes. I'd like to continue this discussion further."

What I would propose to do with your information is about what I would have proposed to you had you written nothing more than what worked and what was fun for you, and that is the following:

I will follow your lead and do it your way if you are my bomber leader, I would expect you to do it my way and follow my lead if I were your bomber leader.
Neither of us is totally wrong or totally right for all situations.
I was only pointing out my thoughts on how to get the assigned mission accomplished with the largest rate of survival for bomber crews based on my experiences in scenarios, snapshots, close escorts, main arenas and many other events over the past 15 years of flying them, 45 plus years of reading about WWII bomber missions, and being fortunate enough to have been able to talk to, and become friends of, a number of bomber crewmen who actually flew in the ETO and PTO during the years of the war.

My idea of fun is to try to get the mission done to the best of my ability, and as a leader, try to get as many of my group home as is possible.
Getting kills is not my primary mission as a bomber crewman, pilot or gunner. It is the primary mission of the escorts to get the kills, for they have no other reason to be above or around my bomber group but to kill the "bad guys" so that I can accomplish my mission.
As a pilot and/or a group leader, it is my primary mission to deliver as many of my/our bombs on target and on time as I can, and get myself and my group home in one piece. Only as a necessity, and for stricktly defensive purposes, will I step to the rear of my plane and take up a gunner position.
Never for the sake of being able to say I landed "a kill", and especially never for the sake of being able to say I landed "a kill" and it only cost me  two bomber aircraft and the lives of ten crew

See, just a difference in what is important to, and what is fun for, each of us.
Now wasn't that simple?

[Kermit de frog]

HB555:
You said what works for me and what makes it fun for me is totally in disagreement with what works for you and is fun for you in regards to that statement you quoted me on.   You totally disagree with me.  Okay.  Yet then say that we are both right/wrong.  If you know that we are both right/wrong, then why give an example of you showing why I'm wrong and then giving an example that demonstrates historical similarities to your example so that you somehow prove I'm totally wrong.

Otherside of coin:
I'm sure you have heard of real stories of bomber groups, combat wings all flying over the target again because not all dropped their bombs.  They sometimes ALL went back over the target, or would circle at a rally point.  Then they would leave home together. (At full throttle?  I don't think so)

I'm currently thinking that by you disagreeing with me,you believe that I'm wrong.  I really don't care whether you agree or not, but to try to say I'm wrong by giving biased historical information isn't good.

Regarding other things you've said.
Some fighter escorts give priority to their squadron over the bombers.  If the squadron gets home alive then mission accomplished while others would rather see the bombers make it out alive and yet still, others would be happy if they each got 1 kill and stayed alive as a fighter squadron.

Some bomber groups would be happy to hit their target on the ground as well as get a few kills as well as make it out with as many planes as possible.

Again, this is just arguing about differences in what makes these events fun for others as I'm sure you are fully aware of being as CM.

(My example about getting a lot of kills and losing some planes was just an example.  Kills vs drones lost on that mission must have been 3:1.  Odds were not with us, but we survived.  You might want to forget what you think is "important and fun" for me.)

Instead of trying to prove me wrong with biased historical information as well as a baised AH example, you can just give out ideas of what You would like to see, add or change in these Sunday's events?

[Easyscor]

<-- Grabs some popcorn and a six-pack.

[HB555]

Kermit,
I can see that there is no point in continueing this "discussion."
Where oh WHERE did I use the phrese "at full throttle?"
You are 100% right and I am 100% wrong. I am all biased, unknowing, and wasting your time and mine.
Gaming and real life are never exactly the same, so again, as I said before, I say, you do it your way and have fun, I'll do it mine and have an equal amount of fun.
You win.
Have fun.
End of discussion.
End of responses.
This game is over.
Score:
Kermit de frog 7,045,963
Snoopy 0

[FiLtH]

All parties will cease hostilities at once.

    Frankly I'm just glad to see people willing to fly bombers. There are alot of guys who will ONLY fly fighters, who to be honest should be in bombers.

[4XTCH]

Originally posted by FiLtH
All parties will cease hostilities at once.

    Frankly I'm just glad to see people willing to fly bombers. There are alot of guys who will ONLY fly fighters, who to be honest should be in bombers.

Filth..HB555..Kermit

Well done guys!. Lets face it, you guys kicked our back sides all the way to Wiesbaden.
In response to your discussion about events that took place, I had to ask myself this question:
What good will come from rehashing events that took place after the fact?Decisions were made , events unfolded. end of story
I did it too, so I'm just as guilty as the next guy.

What I think we are trying to do exclusively in this forum is to try to gather new ideas for Sunday night events.

I enjoyed the event, but do I want to see the same one run week after week? Nope
I'm diggin the enthuseasim though... you got to love this:aok

4XTCH

[Kermit de frog]

Originally posted by HB555
I totally disagree with Kermit, who said, "Also, during exit, the bombers were at full throttle, thereby not letting the ones in the back catch up.

Slow is smooth and smooth is fast."



Drop and get. Thats how it was done then. That's how it should be done now, and I would feel the same if I was tail end charlie and got blasted, if it saved a bunch of others.

As you can see, you quoted me on not liking the "full throttle" during exit and you then say you "totally disagree" with that so therefore, you wish to go full throttle.  It is possible that you didn't mean that.  But this is not the point.    

The point is "Instead of trying to prove me wrong with biased historical information, as well as a baised AH example, can you just try give out ideas of what You would like to see, add or change in these Sunday's events?"  The answer to this question should be "yeah, I made a mistake, sorry about that, to contribute to this thread, I'd like an event with ..."
I hope I'm not being too harsh HB555.  Thanks for not going into name calling or getting any negative emotions over this.

As for MGD, I understand the point of this thread now, but my question still stands.  Why the difference in treatment towards me when compared to others?  I think I'm prepared to receive an answer from you.  I gave hopefully some usefull ideas so that if you ever do another bomber/escort/interceptor mission, you'll have some ideas to improve that just like a few other individuals.  If you do a GV mission, then I guess you can ignore me, because my tips would then be useless.

There is not one person in this thread that I do not respect.  

[HB555]

FiLtH,
The way you lead us, I would follow you to the end of the world...well, our virtual world.
Only thing I can think of to add (in retrospect) is go with a salvo 3 and also assign near and far drop areas to the left, left center, center etc., if we have enough to get the job done.
I love bombers, am pretty decent in them and am proud to be assigned to them.
Lead on!

Personally, I enjoyed flying with every pilot of both sides, and as far as 4XTCH's " Lets face it, you guys kicked our back sides all the way to Wiesbaden." I can only say that you "bad guys" just had a bad day and we look forward to our next encounter.
I think those of you who did find and attacked us did an outstanding job with what you had to work with, and all Axis pilots I saw flew with the professionalism one would expect from the highly skilled fighter pilots the Axis always fields.

[Easyscor]

Those leading bomber formations in the future may find the following useful. The same information can be developed for any bomber.

Ruhr Valley Command staff - XO
(modified for E6B, was originally MP)

Requirements for the B-17:
To maintain level flight with some directional control and #4 engine out.
Conditions:
22,000 feet
50% fuel, 1394 gallons
Bomb load of 3,000 lbs (dump half the load)

Max inbound to target True Air Speed (TAS) for the group is 225 mph.

Max return to base TAS is 244 mph.

Two engines out -
Conditions:
22,000 feet
25% fuel, 692 gallons
Bomb load of zero

The B-17 can't maintain level flight or the necessary TAS at 22,000 feet with two engines out but it can successfully rtb at lower altitudes.
Orders applicable to situation:
Dive ahead of the bomber stream and exit left or right below dar to avoid enemy fighters following the bomber group.