Author Topic: gun control...  (Read 6158 times)

Offline Yeager

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gun control...
« Reply #105 on: April 18, 2007, 12:09:46 PM »
The real problem in America today is accountability.
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I believe people should have the liberty to live peaceful lives without fear of being murdered or without the need to arm themselves.  Give people THAT liberty and you have a great country again!  or at least something closer than what we have degenerated into.

Also, how does accountability keep firearms out of the hands of mentally unstable people?  I'll tell you how: By being accountable, gun sellers should be required to vouch for the mental stability of those people purcashing weapons from them.  If they cannot vouch then they should not sell. Now "Thats" accountability!  No?
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #106 on: April 18, 2007, 12:27:46 PM »
Yeager,

Having a gun sales clerk or owner having to vouch for the stability of an individual is unrealistic and just another pandora's box of problems.  My ex-wife was a PhD Psychologist.  She used to see people that on some days were perfectly normal, on others, completely deranged.  So, by that rule you propose, the day the individual is normal and buys a gun, and the next day isn't how is the seller to know.  What do you propose to do with the millions of "unregistered" guns that are out there?  Make people register them and take a psychiatric test?

As for accountability, I think it definitely could have helped in this case.  Especially considering that the individual in question was implicated in stalking women.  That in and of itself should have been a "warning sign" that the guy was losing it.  Whose to say now though.  Somewhere a ball was dropped, and that will be forthcoming sooner rather than later I suspect.
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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gun control...
« Reply #107 on: April 18, 2007, 12:30:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
The real problem in America today is accountability.
====
I believe people should have the liberty to live peaceful lives without fear of being murdered or without the need to arm themselves.  Give people THAT liberty and you have a great country again!  or at least something closer than what we have degenerated into.

Also, how does accountability keep firearms out of the hands of mentally unstable people?  I'll tell you how: By being accountable, gun sellers should be required to vouch for the mental stability of those people purcashing weapons from them.  If they cannot vouch then they should not sell. Now "Thats" accountability!  No?


Well said. By default nobody should have to get a gun because they feel threatened. That's freedom right there. Freedom to live without fear.

Freedom to live knowing your neighbour didn't need to get a weapon to protect himself. Makes it easyer to go and visit. :cool:
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #108 on: April 18, 2007, 12:33:39 PM »
I agree Hap.  The moral fiber of the country seems to slipping daily.  Unfortunately there is no simple answer.  We are not a religous nation, thankfully our founding fathers thought to add that after the fact.  But, I do believe we take a lot (not all) of our core values in law from the Tem Commandments.  Maybe it is time to have a dialogue in congress with regards to morality and law.  Maybe it is time for us to build a thousand more prisons to house those that are not going to act with decency to society instead of releasing them into public to commit yet another crime.  Maybe it is time that people in prison lived without cable TV, weight lifting equipment and are made to work while there.  I do not have the answers, that needs to come from the people of this country.

What I do know though, is that I will not allow my 2nd Ammendment Right (nor anyother Right) to be trampled down to punish the few.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #109 on: April 18, 2007, 12:34:03 PM »
You are certainly free to give up any rights you choose to give up.

I'm sure you'll understand if I choose to keep all of mine.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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gun control...
« Reply #110 on: April 18, 2007, 12:43:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
You are certainly free to give up any rights you choose to give up.

I'm sure you'll understand if I choose to keep all of mine.



Well said.

Amen.
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SaVaGe


Offline Brenjen

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gun control...
« Reply #111 on: April 18, 2007, 12:47:59 PM »
^ Seconded

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #112 on: April 18, 2007, 01:02:50 PM »
Exactly what all are you willing to give up?

I can make a bomb with diesel fuel, kerosene, or other fuels combined with fertilizer. Gasoline and certain detergents can be used to make napalm like substances. Ball bearings can be used to make claymore type projectiles for home made bombs. Propane can also be used for a fuel-air type bomb.

So how many things that are weapons or can be made into weapons are you willing to surrender your rights to? What things are you willing to have your access to restricted?

Me? I'm old school, I'm not willing to give up any more rights. And I have a daughter in college (her boyfriend attended VA Tech for a couple of semesters) and a son in middle school. And my wife is an office manager.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #113 on: April 18, 2007, 01:25:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
thats better Mav, thanks.  Is that your solution as well?  I mean it does qualify as a solution but a very weak one as it offers nothing new.  The problems of violence we experience as a culture just continue unabated.


Yeager, that little blurb you liked was not a solution. Neither was what I posted earlier.

You are asking for a solution to a problem with people and population. IMO the root of this situation is we no longer raise children. They are just popped out of Mom and the "parents" expect the TV, internet and schools to raise their children for them. We license people to drive, operate machinery, practice professions yet anyone can have a kid and pretty much do as they please with it.

No one is responsible for their actions anymore. It's all just an "accident" to explain negligence or acts of ommisions. Throwing money at the problem is the "solution" most often employed by a court for civil actions. People are "insured" to prevent them from bearing responsibility for their actions and they seem to feel they deserve insurance from everything else.

Frankly, the solution you want is simple. Go live somewhere by yourself where there are no people. There you can be safe from people and never have to worry about being murdered, assaulted or have anything stolen from you. Until you do sometrhing like that you will always be subject to someone elses intrusion into your life.

Until then, like I said and like Toad said, you are free to abdicate any and all of YOUR rights you wish, but leave mine alone.
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Offline Yeager

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gun control...
« Reply #114 on: April 18, 2007, 01:31:16 PM »
As for accountability, I think it definitely could have helped in this case. Especially considering that the individual in question was implicated in stalking women. That in and of itself should have been a "warning sign" that the guy was losing it.
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There were all sorts of warnings that should have prevented this guy from legally buying a gun, but his individual "rights" were protected and 32 innocent people were slaughtered for it.  

We gun owners are going to need to start being seriously proactive in creating a solution for this problem or the masses are going to cut our baby out of the constitution and you had better believe that.

So mav, you have no solution? or is rasing our children better what your getting at?  As for me, I feel that more needs to be done to prevent unstable people from purchasing firearms.

Also need to seriously look at allowing certain pre screened people to carry weapons concealed in places where there is a desire to remain peaceful, like in schools.  Or maybe just allow full concelaed carry in all places after stringent training and mental health evaulations have taken place for the carriers.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 01:36:07 PM by Yeager »
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Offline Toad

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gun control...
« Reply #115 on: April 18, 2007, 02:12:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
There were all sorts of warnings that should have prevented this guy from legally buying a gun,  


Maybe you could enlighten me on those warnings that should have legally prevented him buying a gun?

I'm awfully familiar with the Form 4473 but I've seen nothing so far that would have prevented his legal purchase of a firearm.

Clue me in, please.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #116 on: April 18, 2007, 02:34:52 PM »
Yeager,

I told you a solution for your problem. Perhaps you missed it. I'll repost it.

"Frankly, the solution you want is simple. Go live somewhere by yourself where there are no people. There you can be safe from people and never have to worry about being murdered, assaulted or have anything stolen from you. Until you do something like that you will always be subject to someone elses intrusion into your life."

This is a solution to the problem you said you have. I personally do not live in fear for my life or for my family so it's not a solution I need.

Having people around me is not something that makes me fearful for what they may do in any or all cases. I also won't impose on others a demand they surrender their rights to assuage a fear of mine. I object, quite vehemently, to others doing so to me.

As to the individuals writings being a problem. Now you are in the area of thought police. I suppose you would deny horror / crime authors their rights because they write about horrible things being done to people. Perhaps you would like the folks that wrote and produced films depecting murder to be locked up.

Under the current legal situation, thought is not against the law. Acting on some thoughts may be but only when you ACT on them. Until someone does somthing overtly criminal you cannot do something to them. It's that other pesky little right called innocent until PROVEN guilty in a court of law.
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Offline indy007

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gun control...
« Reply #117 on: April 18, 2007, 02:39:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Also need to seriously look at allowing certain pre screened people to carry weapons concealed in places where there is a desire to remain peaceful, like in schools.  Or maybe just allow full concelaed carry in all places after stringent training and mental health evaulations have taken place for the carriers.


Try this. The conclusion is that, statistically, public shootings with several victims are a lot less frequent in states that have friendlier concealed carry laws.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #118 on: April 18, 2007, 02:43:40 PM »
BLACKSBURG, Va. (AP) - The gunman blamed for the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history had previously been accused of stalking two female students and had been taken to a mental health facility in 2005 after his parents worried he might be suicidal, police said Wednesday.
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This is all I need and theres plenty more.  You want it?  

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070418/D8OJ2UOG0.html

Read the whole article if enlightenment is truly what you seek.
You genuinely support this guy being able to buy a gun legally?

mav suggested: Go live somewhere by yourself where there are no people.
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Sorry mav, not doable, Im a people person.  And I want a safe society or at least one that is not negligent towards its law abiding members.  That cho guy should not have been able to buy a gun legally.  Sorry, but keep trying, I do sense good intentions in your thinking.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 02:51:26 PM by Yeager »
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Offline Terror

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gun control...
« Reply #119 on: April 18, 2007, 02:53:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Read the whole article if enlightenment is truly what you seek.
You genuinely support this guy being able to buy a gun legally?


He did not commit any crimes or commited any actions that would have indicated he would use a gun in criminal activity.  Just because someone is a "scary" or they write disturbing plays, does not mean they are on the road to commiting an extremely violent act.  Restricting a persons freedoms for a crime they "may" commit is not consistent with the principles of freedom.

I would agree with a restriction on selling firearms to a non-citizen though.  As I see it, the constitution applies to US Citizens, not resident aliens.

Terror