Author Topic: Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST  (Read 4043 times)

Offline Yeager

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Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST
« on: April 19, 2007, 01:35:11 PM »
Good God, here we go again.  With friends like this guy who needs insurgents to beat the most capable military on earth......

Im ashamed to share the same nationality with this man.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070419174958.d2ni8f1d&show_article=1
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Offline john9001

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Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2007, 02:57:51 PM »
breaking news, december 14 1944

the mighty germany army that everyone thought was defeated has broken through the allied lines in the Ardennes and is driving hard to the port of Antwerp to cut the allied forces in half, thousands of allied prisoners have been taken, american troops are surrounded at Bastogne, the germans are using a new super tank that is unstoppable,
The american congress has advised FDR to accept the cease fire terms hitler has offered.

Offline Ripsnort

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Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2007, 02:59:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
breaking news, december 14 1944

the mighty germany army that everyone thought was defeated has broken through the allied lines in the Ardennes and is driving hard to the port of Antwerp to cut the allied forces in half, thousands of allied prisoners have been taken, american troops are surrounded at Bastogne, the germans are using a new super tank that is unstoppable,
The american congress has advised FDR to accept the cease fire terms hitler has offered.

:rofl Surely you jest?

Offline john9001

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Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2007, 03:04:51 PM »
the first part is history, the last line is what would have happened if Reid had been in congress.

Offline Holden McGroin

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Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2007, 03:05:31 PM »
I don't know what the big problem is...

I mean to clean up Bagdhad, all we need is some bomb control legislation...
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Offline Ripsnort

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Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2007, 03:25:51 PM »
We have planted the seed of democracy which means political choice in the Middle East.

We have drawn al-Qaida onto a battlefield not of their choosing.

The Iraqi people have conducted 3 democratic elections.

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi could not defeat the coalition soldiers, so he turned to spread his terror on the Iraqi Civilian population. That is not "caused" by America, unless of course that we are guilty of trying to free peeple from a tyrannical government.

Zarqawi understood that the only way al-Qaida can claim a defeat of the west is by creating an Islamic sectarian war between Shia and Sunni's.

al-Qaida has literally bet the bank that they would break the Iraqi people. So far that has not happened.

Americans have learned that earning liberty and victory pays a high price in blood, sweat and hardship, as the Iraqi people are learning at this moment. They will need patience, nothing comes fast or without the cost of lives when dealing with democracy.

Offline tedrbr

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Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2007, 04:36:22 PM »
Sorry.  Although I agree we can't leave Iraq in the condition it's in now (especially since it's been American policies since 2002 that have created this mess in the first place), I can't hang idealistic goals and good intentions to the effort either.   We need to stay, because should we pull out altogether, and the region collapses under all the power plays going on, then all the western economies will collapse under $150 per barrel oil prices.


Planting the seed of democracy in the middle east was arrogant and short sited on the part of us Americans in regards to the social-political realities that is the middle east.  For democracy to take hold, there would need to be a national identity.... there is no national identity in Iraq.  They do not see themselves as Iraqi so much as they see themselves members of their religious sect, clan, tribe, or their power base in relation to others. That's were their loyalties lie.
I know the official grand plan was to spread the joy of Democracy (ironic, since we've been sliding from a Republic to a Oligarchy for years now), but that was an unrealistic goal from the beginning.

We'd have been better off chasing al Qaida to the countries they fled to from Afghanistan: Pakistan, Philippians,  Indonesia, Bangladesh, and so forth to keep them hounded and off balance rather then allowing them to regroup, reorganize, and retrain unmolested.  That's not what we did, and we have to pay for those mistakes in treasure and blood.

It has not just been al Qaida causing terror and trying to break up Iraq.  Everyone has a stake in the power play in the region.  The Arab countries would benefit from the Sunni's coming out on top.  The Persians have an interest in the Shii coming out ahead.  The Turks seem to be getting over their distrust of the Kurds and developing ties to them and their region.  Syria has no interest in closing it's borders to allowing it's own troublemakers to cross to Iraq to make mischief.  The Sunnis are trying to hold or regain the power they once had.  The Shii want to take revenge on the Sunnis for decades of oppression.  Iranian arms smugglers enjoy the business opportunities in Iraq, using the same smuggling routes that Iraqis use to deliver alcohol and porn to Iran.  


This was never about bringing liberty to Iraqis.  This was about geographical location.  The dream was a democratic Iraq, in the middle of the world's primary oil regions, in which to permanently locate American military bases from which to project power and influence over the region.  It was seen as a middle east version of South Korea.  It was about gaining direct access to Iraq's oil.  It was about turning a democratic and western friendly middle east country into the front line of the "Long War" and keeping it away from America's shores.   But, due in a large part to very stupid decisions made along the way by American leadership, the effort has so far failed and ground down to what we have now.

We can't realistically pull out, without huge consequences.  Those in power are unable and unwilling to come to grips with the mistakes that have been made to date.   And I'm not sure there is the political or national will to see this whole mess through to at least an acceptable conclusion.  

About as close to a no-win situation as I can think of now.  It's now down to salvaging as much as possible and lose less badly.  So, although I agree with the "can't win" sentiment, we can't leave.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 04:39:57 PM by tedrbr »

Offline john9001

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Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2007, 04:53:20 PM »
tedrbr. you give up too easy. No one ever said it was not going to be difficult.

almost everyone living now in Iraq has lived under a dictatorship, they do not know how to govern themselves, we must show them how.

Offline Ripsnort

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Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2007, 05:11:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by tedrbr
This was never about bringing liberty to Iraqis.  This was about geographical location.  The dream was a democratic Iraq, in the middle of the world's primary oil regions, in which to permanently locate American military bases from which to project power and influence over the region.  It was seen as a middle east version of South Korea.  It was about gaining direct access to Iraq's oil.  It was about turning a democratic and western friendly middle east country into the front line of the "Long War" and keeping it away from America's shores.   But, due in a large part to very stupid decisions made along the way by American leadership, the effort has so far failed and ground down to what we have now.


I agree with the last statement that stupid decisions were made, however from the very beginning, this action was presented as necessary because of the threat posed by Saddam Hussein in the region and globally.

The solution envisioned and repeatedly stated by the administration was that regime change (per existing US policy) and the seeding of democracy in Iraq would lead to long term stability. In particular, Iraq would represent the second democracy in the region (after Afghanistan). Democracy was viewed loosely as the idea of self-determination.

The reasons why Saddam was considered a threat that required action were:

1. Violations of the treaty signed after the 1991 war.
2. History of destabilization in the area (invasion of Kuwait)
3. Violations of UN sanctions
4. WMD (in possession, prior use and desire for more).

All of these ideas were regularly presented by the Administration. The goal of democratization and long-term stability were out front from the start.

It drives me nuts that people keep saying the admin changed their story. They haven't! All this was in the open from the beginning. The 4 areas mentioned were widely held beliefs among Reps. Dems. and their counterparts in other countries. Not all agreed that war was the right solution but the prevailing belief about the facts was widely held. WMD received the most emphasis since that's were the crux of the debate was at the time. When the WMD intel turned out to be bad, the argument shifted emphasis to the other reasons that were part of the original argument.

The idea of stabilization via democracy is questionable but it was never a hidden agenda.

And it drives me nuts when folks say "its about oil!" Just look who got the 3 biggest contracts for oil export out of Iraq. NONE were US based companies and my gasoline bill isn't smaller today than it was 3 years ago!
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 05:15:08 PM by Ripsnort »

Offline Viking

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Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2007, 05:16:37 PM »
You have lost. The terrorists have won a tremendous victory. It's only a matter of time.

Offline FrodeMk3

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Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2007, 05:17:23 PM »
Quote
john9001 tedrbr. you give up too easy. No one ever said it was not going to be difficult.

Quote
almost everyone living now in Iraq has lived under a dictatorship, they do not know how to govern themselves, we must show them how.


Of course, they've went from a dictatorship, to being ruled by a military government from a foreign nation, to being led by a government put in place by said same nation.

Do you believe, for one second, that the Iraqi's are going to happily accept this?

If they did, We would not be continually sustaining casualties. There would be no more bombings. They would already be standing on their own, rather than having the bulk of the U.S. military there.

Ted is spot on with this.

We can't just leave, now. It was this sort of scenario that the Elder Bush hoped to avoid at the end of Desert Shield, and which is why he did'nt pursue Hussein's removal at the end of that conflict.

Our intrusion into Iraq was simply oppurtunism. It had nothing to do with 9/11. There were no terrorist ties. Even the administration finally admitted that the WMD's were wind and smoke.Wanna go after a real terrorist country? Why did'nt we go after Syria? Or Iran first?

Offline Ripsnort

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Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2007, 05:27:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
You have lost. The Emporer has won a tremendous victory. It's only a matter of time.


Signed,
Tokyo Rose.

Offline Ripsnort

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Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2007, 05:28:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FrodeMk3

Our intrusion into Iraq was simply oppurtunism. It had nothing to do with 9/11. There were no terrorist ties. Even the administration finally admitted that the WMD's were wind and smoke.Wanna go after a real terrorist country? Why did'nt we go after Syria? Or Iran first?


1. Violations of the treaty signed after the 1991 war.
2. History of destabilization in the area (invasion of Kuwait)
3. Violations of UN sanctions
4. WMD (in possession, prior use and desire for more).

Offline x0847Marine

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Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2007, 05:32:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
We have planted the seed of democracy which means political choice in the Middle East.



We planted a democracy seed in that area once, the Shaw, which sprouted into the Iran that hates us today. Nobody remembers our politicians 1st spectacular failure at democracy gardening in the mid east?

Killing every enemy fighter wont stop the US installed govt from being undermined similar to the Shaw...

Offline john9001

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Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2007, 05:34:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Do you believe, for one second, that the Iraqi's are going to happily accept this?
 


they accepted  dictatorship under saddam for 35 years.