Author Topic: Euro Missle Shield  (Read 6942 times)

Offline Shifty

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« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2007, 09:03:35 AM »
I rather the money was spent on the problems we have with our own border. Anytime the U.S. does anything to help Europe all we get is grief.

Leave them to their socialist yearnings, let them cozy up to that wonderful big bear in the East. They don't want our help, they don't even like the U.S. So why force the issue? Cut the cord let them go about their business and let's take care of our own problems.

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Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2007, 09:07:49 AM »
ROFL Shifty.. you havent read up on this at all have you?

The shield placed in europe is there to protect America... not europe

Offline LePaul

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« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2007, 09:16:30 AM »
Umm, as I recall...Moscow has a missile sheild system in place.

So if the USA and Europe develop one...oh wait, that's unfair and destabilizing?

Pffft  whatever.

Sooner or later, they'll chuck Putin and get a real democracy going.  This fool wants the glory days of 1988 again.  You know, long lines, empty grocery stores...BUT...an impressive military movement!

Offline Shifty

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« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2007, 09:16:56 AM »
LOL Nielson you're jumping conclusions AGAIN. Of course it's there to protect America , and Europe. Europe doesn't want it, don't put it up. Protect ourselves and leave Europe out of it.

You're typical of the everything American is evil attitude across the Atlantic. I say leave your kind to their own devices.

Europe is like the retarded kid in school, you can protect him from the bully, you can try and help him get through class. Then in return he wipes his boogers on your desk.

No thanks.

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline Tango

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« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2007, 09:21:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
US fought in the Pacific for 3 years, and Red Army defeated Japanese continental 1.5 million army in 2 weeks losing less then 10 thousand servicemen. Sorry guys.


LOL They were already beaten and they just didn't want to believe it. It took 2 A-bombs to convince them.
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Offline Viking

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« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2007, 09:31:27 AM »
Thank you for the offer Sir, but Europe is in no need of your protection. The armies of Europe tally more troops, tanks, missiles and combat aircraft than any other continent, including North America. We tried the Maginot line earlier. Didn't work.

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« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2007, 09:40:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Thank you for the offer Sir, but Europe is in no need of your protection. The armies of Europe tally more troops, tanks, missiles and combat aircraft than any other continent, including North America. We tried the Maginot line earlier. Didn't work.
now if only the folks in washington would agree.  while you're at it please send them a memo on the UN, it needs a new building.  it would be preferable if it was located somewhere in cloggyland.

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2007, 09:45:00 AM »
Quote
I rather the money was spent on the problems we have with our own border. Anytime the U.S. does anything to help Europe all we get is grief.

Leave them to their socialist yearnings, let them cozy up to that wonderful big bear in the East. They don't want our help, they don't even like the U.S. So why force the issue? Cut the cord let them go about their business and let's take care of our own problems. - Shifty


i'm leaning this way too, even tho it was agreed that an attack on one signatory of the NATO countries would be regarded as an attack on the all, therefore, the protection of any one NATO signatory is the same as protection of all NATO signatories, esp if that signatory is paying for the protection ( the missle defense shield).

if a simple majority in NATO don't want it, i'd say that they are failing to abide by the mission of NATO as agreed on after the end of the Cold War, when the mission of NATO was changed from protection of NATO members against Soviet attack to  mutual protection of NATO members against any military attack.  If a simple majority of NATO members do not want to honor this agreement,  we can legitimately pull out of it.  

we can take care of ourselves.  while we're at it, lets drastically reduce all foreign aid and focus that money on our own country.  my impression is that most of our foreign aid is a cynical effort anyway, meant to control and influence and we are regarded with contempt by the beneficiaries.
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Offline Gloves

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« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2007, 09:53:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Feel happy that JVS didn't throw your so-called "armies" into the Atlantic as Soviet Marshals suggested. It was estimated as 2 weeks of walking across France and West Germany without any opposition - you guys couldn't ever compare to Germans.

I am not getting really ugly here, or am I?...


I didn't realize the Russian Army had a force of combat cockroaches - the only thing that survives atomic blasts from what I understand.  I assumed the Japanese were the only ones who thought we only had 1 atomic bomb to toss.  Considering the lack of understanding at the time of what would have happened if a-bombs were tossed around Europe, it's very likely they would have been used - assuming the Russians could throw our 'so-called "armies" ' into the Atlantic.  That would have been a tragedy for all sides.  I'm glad we'll never know.

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Offline Shifty

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« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2007, 09:56:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunthr
we can take care of ourselves.  while we're at it, lets drastically reduce all foreign aid and focus that money on our own country.  my impression is that most of our foreign aid is a cynical effort anyway, meant to control and influence and we are regarded with contempt by the beneficiaries.



Areed. I even agree with the Europeans. No American missle defence system in Euope. I don't see the problem.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 10:00:11 AM by Shifty »

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Offline Halo

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« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2007, 09:59:26 AM »
From what I read, my impression is the missile defense in Europe is the counterpart of the token missile defense on the U.S. west coast and Alaska:  a small force able only to stop a few warheads from a limited attack as from North Korea or Iran or some James Bond villain terrorists.  

Both systems would not deter China or Russia, and hence not destabilize any existing arms agreements.  

Both China and Russia should welcome such limited missile defense systems as they presumably would help pinpoint the origin of any rogue attacks, hopefully intercept any limited attacks, and thus be much less likely to trigger any retaliation against China or Russia.  
The scenario gets much more complicated if hostiles manage to launch  missiles from within China or Russia.  Even the best hotline communication would have trouble explaining that.

It is a tribute to world sanity that so far a nuclear exchange has been avoided.  Between nations that want to live, deterrence has been workable.  Governments understand that any defense against a mass nuclear attack can be overwhelmed.

For suicidal terrorists, no deterrence has yet proven effective at any level of conflict.  Like exterminating hornets, the best tactic is to kill them in their nests, not swat at them after they launch.  

Like it or not, the best strategy against terrorists is to devise mutually beneficial accomodations that help them value living more than dying, peacefully cooperating instead of destructively competing in basic survival needs.  We're very good at destroying bodies but not so effective winning minds.

Ultimately a terrorist is anyone who has so much less power than his opponents that the only way he perceives he can change what he perceives as injustices is to strike by any means possible to cause as much grief and damage as possible to his perceived oppressors even if it costs his life, which to him has become unbearable anyway.  

It helps if the terrorist is assured of a better life in the hereafter, especially if deeds against the perceived oppressors will magnify his reward.  

So how do we fight such swarms of suicidal zealots?  Exterminate all of them?  Not likely.  Win their leaders' minds?  Great idea.  Now, wonder how that can be done?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 10:14:08 AM by Halo »
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Offline Yeager

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« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2007, 10:04:21 AM »
In my opinion, Roosevelt and Churchill conspired to allow the Soviets to defeat most of Hitlers army before Jun 6 1944.

It wasn't so much that we couldn't have tackled the German, but if your bigger friend has an axe to grind, and wants to take on the enemy, you get behind him really fast.  Just makes sense really.  

Every American should be thankful the Russian army was up to the task.  Saved millions of Allied lives.  Even then, Hitler damn near wiped Russia out.  Just Hitlers military stupidity saved the Russians.

I also think the missle shield thing is probably just a political ruse.
If so, Putin seems to have taken the bait.



"For suicidal terrorists, no deterrence has yet proven effective at any level of conflict. Like exterminating hornets, the best tactic is to kill them in their nests, not swat at them after they launch. "
====
Exactly.
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Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2007, 10:18:28 AM »
Quote
For suicidal terrorists, no deterrence has yet proven effective at any level of conflict. Like exterminating hornets, the best tactic is to kill them in their nests, not swat at them after they launch.

Like it or not, the best strategy against terrorists is to devise mutually beneficial accomodations that help them value living more than dying, peacefully cooperating instead of destructively competing in basic survival needs. We're very good at destroying bodies but not so effective winning minds. - Halo


well, which do you mean, Halo?  kill terrorists in their nests? or "help" them acquire your values (which they hold in contempt)???

actually, killing them in their nests IS the best way to "help" terrorists acquire your values.  a dead terrorist is good, benificial terrorist.

true, we have not been successful at winning terrorist minds.  :lol  

on the other hand, the terrorists have been somewhat successful at winning liberal minds among the Democrat political party...
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Offline Vad

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« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2007, 10:21:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gloves
I didn't realize the Russian Army had a force of combat cockroaches - the only thing that survives atomic blasts from what I understand.  I assumed the Japanese were the only ones who thought we only had 1 atomic bomb to toss.  Considering the lack of understanding at the time of what would have happened if a-bombs were tossed around Europe, it's very likely they would have been used - assuming the Russians could throw our 'so-called "armies" ' into the Atlantic.  That would have been a tragedy for all sides.  I'm glad we'll never know.

Glove


Fortunately, history doesn't know conditional tense.
But I wouldn't rely on nuke in this scenario. One thing is to drop the bomb on the unprotected towns on far East whithout any own troops around, and abslolutely another thing is nuke troops on front lines in the center of Europe where they are in direct contact with your own troops .
There were no ICBMs in that time, and all Russian production were concentrated in Ural. Good luck to fly there!
Just for the record, I'm more than happy that neither Stalin nor Truman tried this scenario.

Offline CFYA

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« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2007, 10:31:14 AM »
Wow the cyber tape measure is out in full force. I think I will step back from this one.

Everyone has there opinion.....no matter how much error might be in them.

CFYA