Author Topic: I hate russia.  (Read 7842 times)

Offline Estel

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« Reply #120 on: July 17, 2007, 01:55:55 PM »
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Originally posted by Toad
Thanks.

I'll start researching those. Are they the only ones you could find?


These were officialy complained. Sure, this list don't include clean combat losses and doubt cases when gunfire wasn't confirmed or it was a clean navigational error.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #121 on: July 17, 2007, 02:00:08 PM »
*8 September 1950 Two US Air Force F-80 Shooting Stars strafed a Soviet airfield near Vladivostok.

I think it is beneficial to post as much as we can find on these incidents. Also, note that you found 4 incidents on that list of Soviet aircraft being shot down. There are probably 60 incidents (or more) of Soviets shooting down other country's aircraft.


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Even as the JCS and the NSC wrestled with their guidelines, Gen. Stratemeyer was already taking action, issuing orders against border violations on July 3 and August 14. Errors nevertheless occurred, notably on August 27 when a pair of Mustang pilots strafed the Antung airfield (just across the Yalu River from Sinuiju) and on September 22 when a B-29 crew mistakenly bombed the Antung marshaling yard. Incensed by these blunders, the FEAF leader reiterated that under no conditions would the borders be violated. The most serious violation, however, occurred on October 8.

That day a quartet of 49th FBG pilots were scheduled to sweep the Chongjin airfield in northeast Korea. Two of the fliers, including the flight leader, had to abort after experiencing mechanical problems, but the remaining pair pressed on. Instead of hitting the Chongjin field, however, they hit an airfield near Vladivostok. Seeing the field filled with "P-39" aircraft, the two men proceeded to strafe them. Several of these planes were destroyed or damaged before the Americans departed. Soviet political reaction was swift, and the United States apologized for the gaffe. Sadly, this incident resulted in the group commander being relieved, but a court-martial did not convict the errant pilots. Nonetheless, they did no further flying in Korea.



The US admitted it was a mistake and fired the group commander. There are a very few incidents on the list where the Soviet Union admitted any mistake after shooting down military/civilian aircraft and I don't remember any Soviet officers getting fired. Maybe you can shed some light on that.

*4 September 1950 A US Navy F4U-4B Corsair of VF-53, piloted by Ensign Edward V. Laney, shot down a Soviet Naval Aviation Douglas A-20 Box over the Yellow Sea

Might as well post the whole thing, eh Estel?

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4 September 1950 A US Navy F4U-4B Corsair of VF-53, piloted by Ensign Edward V. Laney, shot down a Soviet Naval Aviation Douglas A-20 Box over the Yellow Sea, southeast of the Soviet-occupied Port Arthur Naval Base in China and west of the North Korean coast.

Laney was one of a four-ship Combat Air Patrol from the carrier USS Valley Forge (part of Task Force 77), which was protecting US Navy air activity against North Korea not long before the Inchon landings.  

The A-20 was one of two belonging to the Port Arthur-based 36th Mine-Torpedo Aviation Regiment of the Red Banner Pacific Fleet, apparently sent out on an armed reconnaissance mission.  A-20s had been supplied in quantity to the Soviets on Lend-Lease during World War 2, and this unit had had extensive experience during the war as torpedo bombers .  

The Corsairs encountered the two A-20s about 40 nautical miles from the Chinese coast.  One A-20 turned back, but the other pressed on.  As the Corsairs descended, the top turret gunner on the A-20 was observed to open fire.  

Richard E. Downs led Laney on a firing pass, and Laney hit the A-20 with his 20mm cannon.  The Soviet aircraft then crashed into the sea.  The US recovered the body of one Soviet crewman, later identified as that of Genaddiy Mishin, the copilot.  The other two bodies, those of Senior Lt. Karpol, the aircraft commander, and Sgt. A. Makaganov, the gunner, were never found.  Mishin's body was returned to the Soviets in 1956.


So in a war zone area during the Korean war a Soviet A-20 that opened fire got shot down. I think that is pretty much self-explanatory.


*27 July 1953 An Aeroflot Il-12 Coach was shot down by US Air Force F-86F Sabre pilot Ralph Parr, near Kanggye, North Korea. All 21 people on board were killed.

Again, let's post the entire statement:

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27 July 1953 An Aeroflot Il-12 Coach was shot down by US Air Force F-86F Sabre pilot Ralph Parr, near Kanggye, North Korea, shortly before the armistice went into effect. All 21 people on board were killed. The Soviets claimed that the aircraft was actually over the People's Republic of China when shot down.



Once again, flying in a war zone during a hot war in a type of aircraft used by the enemy.


*11 May 1966 South Korea Air Force F-5s intercepted a Soviet An-8 Camp flying near North Korea. This An-8 was likely an environmental monitoring aircraft, taking air samples from the nuclear test conducted by the People's Republic of China two days earlier.
"

I can't find anything more on this. It would be nice to have a more specific location but on the surface there appears to be no good reason for the South Koreans to have shot it down.

Sort of like most of the Soviet shoot-downs of military/civilian aircraft.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 02:03:53 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #122 on: July 17, 2007, 02:01:15 PM »
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Originally posted by Boroda
Ah, we forgot multiple MiGs shot down like turkeys flying over US CV groups - poor guys were not clear to fire... This list is incomplete.

About Sukhaya Rechka airfield - please give me sources about commander "disciplined", and "compensation offered". Navigational error my ass!
It's in the link I provided. Reading is FUN-duh-mental.

Offline Estel

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« Reply #123 on: July 17, 2007, 02:16:13 PM »
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Regarding Estels incidents, only 3 were "shot down", one of those incidents (F4U pilots) occurred when a Soviet plane got too close to a carrier group, and the other incident (Airfiield) was a mistake due to navigational error and poor judgement. The air force commander was relieved, the pilot were disciplined, and the United States offered to pay damages.

Now, read of all the shot down western aircraft at Silent Warriors.


Overflying was a normal practice for both sides. But this one was the only when the fire was opened.

About the airfield. This could not be an error. And it's known for both sides too. Because of this, USA made payments. And it was one of the few incidents, when USA confirmed combat attack and agreed for satisfaction.

Anyway, USA have an absolute leadership in shooting down passenger planes. Sure, here we exclude accidents when the reason was "human factor". For example, both sides have accidents when interceptor hitted passenger plane on aerobatics manuevering.

The navigational error has it's place. And there were at least 8 such incidents from both sides. In all of them, crews and planes were returned. And crews wasn't accused.

I understand, that many of you want to see us as an evil. But. Look at the list on that site and you'll see, that all other planes (excluding KAL007 and previous one with 2 killed onboard) we shot down, were military or recon crafts. And all of them (maybe except 2 or 3) were downed in our airspace. Or over our territory.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #124 on: July 17, 2007, 02:19:46 PM »
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Originally posted by Estel
I understand, that many of you want to see us as an evil. But. Look at the list on that site and you'll see, that all other planes (excluding KAL007 and previous one with 2 killed onboard) we shot down, were military or recon crafts. And all of them (maybe except 2 or 3) were downed in our airspace. Or over our territory.


That was Toad's point. Thank you for admitting it. We gave you warmth and food and sent you on your way (escorted out of the area, as you can see by many Bear patrols with F-15's escorting them)  You on the other hand, you killed or imprisoned our pilots.

Again, thanks for stepping up and admitting it.

Old Soviet Union=Evil
New Russia=Okay in my book, just corrupt from residual Old Soviet Union officials.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #125 on: July 17, 2007, 02:27:54 PM »
boroda... now I am confused... you mean that soviets could just get a passport and wave to the border guards as they crossed into other countries?  

why even have walls like in berlin?  to keep out the west perhaps?  so that they wouldn't steal soviet automaking secrets perhaps?

Are you saying that all the people who risked their lives to get out of your country... that every one of em was a rocket scientist?

I take offense at you saying that communism is an alternative.   It is dehumanizing slavery... it is hive mentality not suited for humans.   It is the most disgusting political tyranny ever devised.   I would kill anyone who tried to force it on me.

lazs

Offline Estel

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« Reply #126 on: July 17, 2007, 02:30:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad

*4 September 1950 A US Navy F4U-4B Corsair of VF-53, piloted by Ensign Edward V. Laney, shot down a Soviet Naval Aviation Douglas A-20 Box over the Yellow Sea

Might as well post the whole thing, eh Estel?

So in a war zone area during the Korean war a Soviet A-20 that opened fire got shot down. I think that is pretty much self-explanatory.


You forgot one thing. War zone has borders within the borders of the countries involved into the war. International waters that time wasn't war zone. Thus because, crew opened fire _after_ first unsuccesful attack from F4U. And I think, that this is pretty self-explanatory too. Isn't it?

Quote
Originally posted by Toad
*27 July 1953 An Aeroflot Il-12 Coach was shot down by US Air Force F-86F Sabre pilot Ralph Parr, near Kanggye, North Korea. All 21 people on board were killed.

Again, let's post the entire statement:

Once again, flying in a war zone during a hot war in a type of aircraft used by the enemy.


Shooting down passenger plane wich was identified as a passenger and not enemy is ok? If yes, don't claim us in KAL007 downing. Else, it looks like double standart. One side can shoot passenger jet on official route in international waters (Iraninan jet) and others can not.

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Originally posted by Toad
*11 May 1966 South Korea Air Force F-5s intercepted a Soviet An-8 Camp flying near North Korea. This An-8 was likely an environmental monitoring aircraft, taking air samples from the nuclear test conducted by the People's Republic of China two days earlier.
"
I can't find anything more on this. It would be nice to have a more specific location but on the surface there appears to be no good reason for the South Koreans to have shot it down.


Yes. The reason is not clear. Maybe the crew just was in wrong time in wrong place. Anyway.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #127 on: July 17, 2007, 02:34:40 PM »
Boroda, you're being swamped. I will bring up one point here, but others later. This one is not a nice one for you, some others are.

From you:
"My learning curve is going the other way, from laughing at "commie propaganda" to bitter understanding that in many cases they were right.".

I think it's rather going from commie stuff being perfect to that in many cases they were wrong.

??
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Estel

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« Reply #128 on: July 17, 2007, 02:37:46 PM »
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
That was Toad's point. Thank you for admitting it. We gave you warmth and food and sent you on your way (escorted out of the area, as you can see by many Bear patrols with F-15's escorting them)  You on the other hand, you killed or imprisoned our pilots.

Again, thanks for stepping up and admitting it.

Old Soviet Union=Evil
New Russia=Okay in my book, just corrupt from residual Old Soviet Union officials.


You are getting too far. Let me explain. Your planes overflyed OUR land. And OUR TERRITORY. They did it all of the time. And there was ONLY ONE incident when Tu-95 overflyed USA land. BTW around Langley AFB. Do you see the difference?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #129 on: July 17, 2007, 03:19:45 PM »
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Originally posted by Estel
I understand, that many of you want to see us as an evil.


That's not what I want to see.

I would like to see you all admit that what you did in these incidents was completely and unnecessarily brutal. It happened over and over and over again.

Again the point is your recon aircraft landing in Alaska, the plane being fueled, the crew fed and kept warm and allowed to go on their way the next day.

Compare that incident to what the Soviet Union did to aircraft in international airspace. Those crews were murdered. They were not violating your airspace, they were in accordance with international law, there was no reason to kill them.

That's what I'd like to see you admit.

I don't think you can do that.

You try to drag up some tiny bit of justification by saying "USA have an absolute leadership in shooting down passenger planes". Hardly. The Vincennes incident is one incident for which we apologized and paid restitution.

Compare that to the Soviet shoot down on 20 April 1978 of Korean Air Lines Boeing 707-321B (HL-7429, flight 902).

Then on 1 September 1983 there was the Soviet shootdown of Korean Air Lines Boeing 747-230B (HL-7442, flight 007). Have you ever read the transcript of Russian communications on that one? General Anatoli Kornukov sure sounds like a blood-thirsty nutbag on that one. Was he ever disciplined? Uh..no.. he was eventually made commander of the entire Russian Air Force. Proud of that, eh?

By the way, the transcript of the Russian communications is here
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Estel

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« Reply #130 on: July 17, 2007, 03:26:30 PM »
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Originally posted by Toad
You try to drag up some tiny bit of justification by saying "USA have an absolute leadership in shooting down passenger planes". Hardly. The Vincennes incident is one incident for which we apologized and paid restitution.


Only one? Really? Aeroflot Il-12 was forgotten? Maybe you need to reread that link again and make a new count?

Offline Viking

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« Reply #131 on: July 17, 2007, 03:29:22 PM »
How many times did Soviet planes violate US airspace? I have a feeling the number is disproportionate to the number of violations of Soviet air space. The Soviets may have been more trigger-happy, but perhaps they also had a more "target rich" environment.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #132 on: July 17, 2007, 03:30:49 PM »
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Originally posted by Estel
You forgot one thing. War zone has borders within the borders of the countries involved into the war. International waters that time wasn't war zone. Thus because, crew opened fire _after_ first unsuccesful attack from F4U. And I think, that this is pretty self-explanatory too. Isn't it?
[/b]

There is no evidence that there was more than one attack. The only reference says that as the Corsairs descended after spotting the A-20, the top turret opened fire. You have other references?



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Shooting down passenger plane wich was identified as a passenger and not enemy is ok? If yes, don't claim us in KAL007 downing. Else, it looks like double standart. One side can shoot passenger jet on official route in international waters (Iraninan jet) and others can not.
[/b]

I don't see where the Il-2 was identified as an Aeroflot or passenger plane. It was used by the Soviet military as well, correct?

The US admitted the mistake on the Iran Air Airbus and paid reparations. Has the Soviet Union ever admitted an error on KAL 902 or KAL 007 and paid reparations?

 

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Yes. The reason is not clear. Maybe the crew just was in wrong time in wrong place. Anyway.


It appears the SK F-5's merely intercepted and did not shoot down the An-8. Once again, the huge difference between Soviet reaction and the reaction of the rest of the world is apparent.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 03:33:45 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #133 on: July 17, 2007, 03:34:53 PM »
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Originally posted by Estel
I understand, that many of you want to see us as an evil.


Your evilness attacked us twice and has been unable to keep up to their promises. A contract is nothing more than a piece of (toilet) paper to russians. Unreliable partners at best. The history books by russians have no equal.

It's not about wanting to see russians as evil, it's about the facts of life: Don't trust a russian.

Btw. Russians are still often violating the airspace of their neightbours. Russian intelligence gathering planes seem to have a rather bad navigation equipment, I wonder how they manage to get intelligence in the first place when they can't even navigate.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 03:38:31 PM by Fishu »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #134 on: July 17, 2007, 03:39:06 PM »
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Originally posted by Estel
Only one? Really? Aeroflot Il-12 was forgotten? Maybe you need to reread that link again and make a new count?


The Il-12 was also a military aircraft. It was used as a troop transport, paratroop plane and cargo aircraft.

What evidence is there that the US pilot identified it as Aeroflot and then shot it down anyway?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!