Originally posted by Saxman
Thank you, Frode, for that calm, reasoned response that refrained from joining the "Flame the Idealist" circle jerk.
I would like to add that I'm sure the Founding Fathers also didn't anticipate a future where the nation's borders would be regulated in the way they are now. Franklin's statement: "Those who willingly give up liberty for security deserve neither" can ALSO be applied to this entire argument. That's one the key difficulties in this debate is that letter of the law TODAY is clashing with the Founding Fathers' original spirit of intent. So many UNIQUE liberties were written into the US Constitution at the time, PRECISELY in response to the legal excesses of governments, and the religious and ethnic intolerance of Europe (and that's not to say that the latter two did NOT exist here, but the United States is largely unique in that people of so many diverse religions and cultures learned to co-exist in relative peace).
Had US borders been regulated throughout the 19th century to the same (comparable) degree they are now, individuals who were then welcomed (let's steer clear of the then-existing racist complications for the time being, shall we?) would TODAY be turned away or forcibly removed. It would have COMPLETELY changed the character of the nation in the period between the end of the Civil war and beginning of the 19th century if we had the same immigration system in place then as we have today. This may be one of the key eras that DEFINED us as a nation. It's a continuous process of the demand for greater security challenging the liberty of one of the most open borders in the world.
And I find it disturbing because one of the things that MADE America so special is that we didn't CARE who you were, or who your father was, or how much money you had. All that mattered was that you wanted to make a better life for yourself and for your families and to have the power to chose your OWN destiny. It's only been this MODERN culture of Political Correctness that the meaning of "Land of Opportunity" has changed from an opportunity to BUILD a better life, to expecting it handed to you. This is the failing of ALL people in America. Native citizens expect it because they were born here. Immigrants expect it because they're willing to fight to COME here.
I will not deny that yes, there ARE some who come here thinking they can get a free ride (the government ITSELF is partially responsible for that). I will not deny that yes, there ARE some people who would take advantage of any relaxation in border security to do us harm. But why is this the only side people are willing to see? At what point do we reach that moment where we've given TOO MUCH up for security? There's a difference between surrendering sovereignty, to stepping back and seeing that the knee-jerk reaction has only been exacerbating the issue.
If I remember my early U.S. history correctly, The founders' knew that the nation would be able to expand westward quite a bit (Was it Washington that did some survey work in Ohio?) Anyway, At that time, The U.S. was pretty small, population-wise, and there wasn't really a problem with excess immigration, like we have now. They did not have the lure of all the Social-welfare programs that we have, that take someone working 14-16 hours a day, and barely feeding his family in a tin-shack in some shantytown, to doing nothing but filling out the proper forms, and getting a welfare check on the 1st and the 15th that was more in a week than they made in a month or two in mexico.
I'd like to point out too, that we've never really tried to do much in the way of border security, at all. If you look a little more recently at history (1914) You'll see that Pancho Villa was crossing back and forth, doing whatever he wanted...The gov't. finally sent "Blackjack" Pershing down into Mexico after him. People used to cross the border both ways, almost at will. It hasn't been until recent times that any real attempts have been made at policing the border.
As far as trading anything for security...If you are referring to things like the Department of Homeland Security and the 'Patriot' act, Neither of those were brought on by Illegal immigration, But almost entirely by 9/11. And since then, Illegal immigration has gotten worse, if anything, Although neither of the afformentioned have actually done anything to curb the problem, although the way they're set up, they could (and should have, too, if you look at the problem of Arab extremists' posing as Illegal aliens from Mexico.) Being the way that they go about it, an illegal alien is pretty hard to track in a nation of 300+ million. They don't have birth certificates in this country, no SS#, no drivers' license, None of the documentation that a legal citizen of the U.S. has. Really, the only efficient method of stopping them is at the border, or if you're lucky, informant tips that net quite a few at a time.
There's one final thing. Culture. And this might seem outright racist and Un-PC, but honest-to-god, it has to be said, because turning our back on this problem is actually building more racial pressure, not relieving it.
You mentioned immigration in the early U.S. And, alot of what you said, I agree with. Many of the immigrants' from old Europe, russia, etc. have been able to intigrate into 'American' culture, because the numbers' of immigrants did not overwhelm the previous citizens' already here( What happened to the Indians' is a whole 'nother thread topic, But no, They did'nt really get a chance to assimiliate.) However, In the case of Illegal immigration from Mexico, They've been flooding in too fast, in too short a time, for our existing culture to assimilate. Instead, In the areas' where they settle, they don't speak in the tongue of the Founders' who rose up and fought off the tyranny of their opressors', but rather a foreign language. I don't know what it's like in St. Louis, Sax, But I think if you take a trip to Southern California, you might see things' in a different light. We have to contend with crap like this:
http://www.myspace.com/la_brown_beretsIf things' like this kind of give you a glimpse into the cultural rift, there are quite a few more-ranging from mild to wild, Just start with the link I provided and go from there.
