Great FSO

[humble]

This is pretty much what I predicted...Allies in a walk. The simple reality is that the german airforce was improperly concieved and constructed for any type of strategic offensive operations. It is strictly a tactical/defensive entity. I got a little "wife acked" at an inopportune moment and compressed/blacked out=>augered...but given the whole squad went down it wouldnt have mattered. We were barely even mobile at 30-32k and we engaged a few ponies and then had multiple squads fall on us from what appeared to be 35 or even 40k.

What I do find suprising is the Ar-234 survival rate which I do blame on poor allied communication/coordination. Way to many allied planes gangbanging the german fighters and not enough cap disipline. Our job was to get the allies focused on us, and obviously we and the other similiarly tasked squad did....but with roughly 100% losses. So from what I saw the 262's got kicked around and the other axis squads that actually got heavily engaged were basically exterminated....but the buffs did get thru suprisingly well.

[Stampf]

"This is pretty much what I predicted...Allies in a walk. The simple reality is that the german airforce was improperly concieved and constructed for any type of strategic offensive operations. It is strictly a tactical/defensive entity."

   I wish everyone understood this.  well said.

The exception being of course, the earliest days of the war and the far afield theatres where the luftwaffe enjoyed total air superiority and were able to employ their tactical forces in an effective offensive role, closely coordinated with fast moving ground forces. 

[Stampf]

This was the most boring FSO frame that I've ever flown in my life.

Jokers Jokers had 20 ponies that could have been used elsewhere other than chasing 2 or 3 Ar 234s over the City.

We had squadies that didn't fire a single shot the entire time.

This happens.

The most ironic and telling thing about large scale operations.

This was my 44th FSO mission.  I never had a more fun, INTENSE, white knuckled, sweat inducing sortie in all those flights. 

I have had sorties like you describe as well DaveJ.

[DaveJ]

I have had sorties like you describe as well DaveJ.

I understand this.

But judging by the responses on here, I'd say that alot of people agree with me and I'm not the only person with my viewpoint.

[shreck]

"This is pretty much what I predicted...Allies in a walk. The simple reality is that the german airforce was improperly concieved and constructed for any type of strategic offensive operations. It is strictly a tactical/defensive entity."

   I wish everyone understood this.  well said.

The exception being of course, the earliest days of the war and the far afield theatres where the luftwaffe enjoyed total air superiority and were able to employ their tactical forces in an effective offensive role, closely coordinated with fast moving ground forces. 

Having read the BBs before fso start, I understood this was to be a challenge for the allies, do to the" what if " scenario that the Germans had gained the upper hand and initiative during the war! With this said, if the axis has the initiative shouldn't they have slightly more #s than the allies ? We would assume the axis is on the offensive! Also if the balance had shifted as the " what if " scenario dictates, wouldn't the allies be tryin to interdict and disrupt ground operations as much as possible! Also IF the war had really turned as this scenario suggests, the allies still have the superior air forces and would be trying to take advantage of this superiority as much as possible to include their superior bombing ability IMHO.

Just give the allies attack responsibility and let the frames play out!! It eill clearly be allied victory in the end!! Then we can move on to the------------> MANCHURIAN MEAT GRINDER 

[33Vortex]

My schwarm initially stayed high and made contact with a group of jugs, the 68th gang, who didn't gain on us and broke off. A few minutes later we dove in to help friendlies in trouble below, voila, there are the jugs again now diving in from a decisive alt advantage. The three of us were ganged by no fewer than 6 P47Ns and the fight fell rapidly down to the deck. Boingg shot down one, just before I was set on fire. Then boingg went down and last Viper, there's not much you can do when outnumbered 2 vs 6 (another jug was diving in eager to join). The fight went on for several minutes and down to 2-3k. I think chaos would be the word best describing the fight, I never had a clear picture of how many jugs were on us or where they were, as there was always someone on my six. Only after viewing the film afterwards did I see clearly what happened, and we didn't fight half as bad as I thought we did when logging off. It was a heck of a fight.

 

[Saxman]

One key problem in this setup is that the Axis is given aircraft that they very likely wouldn't have used in this scenario. The Germans learned their lesson, albeit too late, during the Battle of Britain, that their bombing strategy and aircraft were insufficient to the task. They were in the process of developing more capable heavy bombers typified by the American B-17s and B-24s, and the British Lancaster, but Allied attacks on their industry and the need to focus on air defense prevented these from being fully explored.

The premise of this is one in which the Allied bombing campaign stalled, if it ever got going. However we do NOT have a plane set that adequately reflects this. If history had unfolded in this manner, the Germans would very likely have access to the advanced four-engined heavy bombers they designed but circumstances prevented them from constructing, while the Allies would have focused more attention on the development of interceptors and destroyers. The Tempest certainly fits this role adequately, as would the Mosquito (in fact, I think the Mosquito SHOULD be inserted into the Allied plane set in place of one of the Spit variants). However the P-51 and P-47N do not, as they were both designed as long-range high-altitude escorts. Of the American plane set, the P-38 and F4U-1C better fit the "destroyer" role.

Also, I agree with Stampf. If the Allies had the numbers advantage while flying attack during Kanalkampf when the Luftwaffe was on the ropes, why do they have the numerical advantage NOW that THEY'RE in that position?

IMO, I'd make the following adjustments for Frames 2 and 3:

Allied Plane Set:

Retain the Tempest and Spit XIV, as she's the closest Spit available to the type of high-altitude interceptor we'd expect in this setup.
Replace the Spit XVI with Mosquito
Replace the P-51 with the P-38L
Retain the P-47N, or replace her with one of the later D variants. The P-47s aren't perfect for this setup, but their heavy machine gun armament best suits the "destroyer" role

Axis Plane Set:

Unfortunately there's not much that can be done here, as there's nothing in the Axis plane set that adequately reflects what equipment the Luftwaffe would have had in the field under these circumstances (short of substituting B-17s, B-24s or Lancasters to fill in for the planned German heavies).

Numbers:

Shift some of the Allied squadrons to Axis. As stated above: If the Axis had a numerical disadvantage in Kanalkampf and this setup is meant to reflect an alternate scenario where the Allies faced this same situation, then the Axis should have the numerical advantage this time.

[Nefarious]

Then we can move on to the------------> MANCHURIAN MEAT GRINDER 

I am doing August's FSO, and I'm sorry to tell you but its not the Manchurian Meat Grinder 

[humble]

I do think that one aspect that might be explored is breaking the 262's up into more dispersed groups. If each 109/152/190D squad had a flight of 262's attached it would provide both scouting and some "top cover" while giving the 262s some more targets of opportunity. The 262 is simply not effective (in most pilots hands) in a full squad deployment.

[Ponyace]

One key problem in this setup is that the Axis is given aircraft that they very likely wouldn't have used in this scenario. The Germans learned their lesson, albeit too late, during the Battle of Britain, that their bombing strategy and aircraft were insufficient to the task. They were in the process of developing more capable heavy bombers typified by the American B-17s and B-24s, and the British Lancaster, but Allied attacks on their industry and the need to focus on air defense prevented these from being fully explored.

The premise of this is one in which the Allied bombing campaign stalled, if it ever got going. However we do NOT have a plane set that adequately reflects this. If history had unfolded in this manner, the Germans would very likely have access to the advanced four-engined heavy bombers they designed but circumstances prevented them from constructing, while the Allies would have focused more attention on the development of interceptors and destroyers. The Tempest certainly fits this role adequately, as would the Mosquito (in fact, I think the Mosquito SHOULD be inserted into the Allied plane set in place of one of the Spit variants). However the P-51 and P-47N do not, as they were both designed as long-range high-altitude escorts. Of the American plane set, the P-38 and F4U-1C better fit the "destroyer" role.

Also, I agree with Stampf. If the Allies had the numbers advantage while flying attack during Kanalkampf when the Luftwaffe was on the ropes, why do they have the numerical advantage NOW that THEY'RE in that position?

IMO, I'd make the following adjustments for Frames 2 and 3:

Allied Plane Set:

Retain the Tempest and Spit XIV, as she's the closest Spit available to the type of high-altitude interceptor we'd expect in this setup.
Replace the Spit XVI with Mosquito
Replace the P-51 with the P-38L
Retain the P-47N, or replace her with one of the later D variants. The P-47s aren't perfect for this setup, but their heavy machine gun armament best suits the "destroyer" role

Axis Plane Set:

Unfortunately there's not much that can be done here, as there's nothing in the Axis plane set that adequately reflects what equipment the Luftwaffe would have had in the field under these circumstances (short of substituting B-17s, B-24s or Lancasters to fill in for the planned German heavies).

Numbers:

Shift some of the Allied squadrons to Axis. As stated above: If the Axis had a numerical disadvantage in Kanalkampf and this setup is meant to reflect an alternate scenario where the Allies faced this same situation, then the Axis should have the numerical advantage this time.

Not trying to raid on your parade, Saxman, but the FSO says that U.S. fighters from the Pacific were coming in to Europe. So it would make sense that long-range fighters would be deployed by the Allies. I understand, however, that the chosen Axis fighters arent really meant to act as escorts. The 190, Ta-152, and Me-262 are all interceptors trying to occupy a fighter escort/air superiority role. The only plane that can truely fill the air-superiority niche is the 109k-4. Also, your right that the Axis would have a heavy bomber (possibly using jet engines, possibly not) and probably a fighter escort. Only problem with "what if" scenerios is that they never could and did due to how history actually happend

[shreck]

I am doing August's FSO, and I'm sorry to tell you but its not the Manchurian Meat Grinder 

Um! the MANCHURIAN MASSACRE ?
How about MANCHURIAN MELTDOWN ?
or MADNESS OVER MANCHURIA ?
TERRIBLE IVANS SUSHI BUFFET ?

It's OK I can wait! It will be worth the wait I'm sure

[shreck]

I do think that one aspect that might be explored is breaking the 262's up into more dispersed groups. If each 109/152/190D squad had a flight of 262's attached it would provide both scouting and some "top cover" while giving the 262s some more targets of opportunity. The 262 is simply not effective (in most pilots hands) in a full squad deployment. :

Just put 6 hispanos on each DEUCE and let the furballing commence 

[Saxman]

True, Pony, but the only Allied fighter that you could really consider a PTO bird in this setup is the P-47N. Which you'll also note in my suggested adjustments is left in the lineup.

[Ponyace]

I suppose your right, Sax, just want a chance to fly the 51 in the FSO, especially since the high speeds of this FSO brings it into its elements
I think I have heard about squads in the pacific with the P51, though, and it would make sense because of the 51s long range and fuel effenciency needed for fighers in the pacific. And if aircraft are coming in from the pacific to europe, as the FSO suggests, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that the 51 squads are moved to Britian as the FSO suggests.
But agian, theres no proof as to if the P51 would or would not have been used since this FSO is only a "what if" scenerio and is hard to imagine what would have happend.

[Saxman]

Ponyace,

The P-51 was actually a case of a ETO fighter being moved to the Pacific. The majority of Mustangs were already going to Europe so she doesn't fit the premise of PTO fighters being shipped to Europe.

However in counter to this, as stated before the P-51 isn't particularly suited to the Interceptor/Destroyer role. Since under this scenario the Allies never had the chance to put the strategic bombing campaign into full effect, they had no need of a high-altitude, long-range escort fighter, so there's a very strong possibility the P-51 may have never evolved beyond the Allison-powered variant (no high-altitude long-range bomber raids over Germany, so there's no need for fighters able to escort them. Therefore, no need for the British to experiment with the Merlin). The P-51 may have even evolved along a totally different path (Hispanos for bringing down bombers, perhaps?)

She can fill the interceptor role, but I think the P-38L would be much more appropriate on both counts, since the P-38 was more widely deployed in the Pacific than Northwest Europe, and the armament makes her better suited to the destroyer role (tons of ammo, guns in the center where they're more effective, and the 20mm).