Initiating scissors

[Dawger]

Dawger...


"A lag roll or lag displacement roll is a barrel roll flown to get from lead pursuit to lag pursuit."

A lag displacement roll is flown to manage closure rate and to maintain or establish proper AOT, it is actually an excellent way to refuse a scissor engagement. A scissor is a defensive move and a lag roll is an offensive one. As TC stated there does come a point where the defender (scissor initiator) can convert to an offensive posture. This potential opportunity is entirely dependent on what the original aggressor does and if an overshoot (or potential overshoot) is created.

As agent said somewhere above its not getting slower per se its flying the farthest possible distance with the least forward movement, this invariably involves 3 dimensional geometry and maintaining very extreme AoA. This could be very accurately be described as a battle of lag rolls as both pilots attempt to establish AOT.

At its best the "scissors duel" is a tremendous test of spatial awareness, 3D tactics and plane handling skill. IMO at the level here the reality is more simple...

1) offer
2) engage flat
3) covert to rolling scissors
4) squeeze the con out front

1) scissors can only be offered not forced

2) once offered the initial move works best if its flat IMO, if the defender refuses and takes the high ground then the flat opener is more survivable for an average pilot then trying to force a rolling scissor. A lot of time the aggressor rolls back into the flat turn after smartly avoiding...actually with more E and a worse angle...

3) once you get the bite you need to convert asap to a more offensive rolling scissors. If the con is allowed to manage closure then the scissor will fail. A lot of players "scissor" with no purpose...like agent I view the scissors as an attack not a defense.

4) once your in a rolling scissor the real concept to work on is the amplitude of the components, learning to keep some speed by forcing the plane to the extremes of its flight envelope will allow you to fly farther "slower" while being faster then a pilot less comfortable with the edge of his planes envelope. Surprisingly to many newer playes you can win the scissor from a +E state vs a "lesser" pilot...

Again with this "lag roll is an offensive move". Everything is offense AND defense simultaneously. "I'm on defense so I can't lag roll" is a silly idea.

Guns defense comes in three parts. The initial break, the maneuver to defeat the shot, and the follow on BFM. When you perform a defensive break you are creating a decision tree based upon the actions of the bandit. The entire idea of the defensive break is to create the most Angle Off possible before the bandit reaches guns range. This doesn't mean a violent or abrupt break. In fact the most effective break smoothly builds the G to effectively disguise the high Angle Off and high G situation you want to develop. A good break turn will bring the bandit to the lift vector or slightly forward of it at the moment he reaches guns range. Stage one of guns defense is over and you have reached your decision point.

At this point in time you must evaluate the bandit and decide which follow on BFM is going to be most appropriate, execute a maneuver to spoil the shot and then transition into your chosen BFM and continue to evaluate.

If, when you get the bandit to the lift vector, you see he is pulling for lead and rapidly closing (you see him nose on or maybe even some belly side) then you are in an excellent position to initiate a nose high lag roll. Rolling the wings level and pulling the nose above the horizon will be enough out of plane maneuver to spoil his shot and if your evaluation was correct you will see his tracers behind your tail followed very shortly by the bandit crossing your 6. Continuing to roll towards the bandit begins the execution of your follow on BFM, The Lag Displacement Roll. All of this happens very rapidly.

Here is a Film demonstrating this.
Break turn to nose high Lag Roll Demo Film

If you slightly misjudged the enemy closure and/or angle off or he recognizes the nose high lag roll early you will very likely end up in a canopy to canopy rolling scissors.

Lag Roll into rolling scissors

If you misjudge badly the bandit will be right behind you and you will be very close to dead. I can't find a film of me doing that.

If, when you get the bandit to the lift vector, you see he is in lag pursuit and closure is small (you see the top of his aircraft) then the last thing you want to do is go nose high. If the bandit has killed all closure in a rapid deceleration you may be able to stay out of guns range by slightly relaxing G and continuing a nose low energy sustaining turn. More likely you will be forced into a maneuver to avoid the gun shot and a follow maneuver to force an overshoot. You don't want to do anything nose high for obvious reasons (If it isn't obvious then it will be once you try it a few times). If you have altitude and a desire to disengage a split S is an excellent choice to sling the bandit out. Doing this is simple. When the bandit reaches his guns firing point roll inverted and pull. This should spoil his guns shot and sling him outside your turn if you don't telegraph what you are doing and coax him into a guns shot.

If you don't have altitude for a split S or want to convert to the offensive nose low is still the way to go. A nose low lag roll after defeating his guns with a roll inverted is a good choice if you have some altitude to play with and get an overshoot from his guns shot. It can develop into a descending rolling scissors or quick offensive position depending on the skill of the bandit and your own execution.

If your break turn is poor or the bandit is fully committed to rapid deceleration and staying in the saddle AND you are on the deck, then you are getting into flat scissors territory. The break turn results in the bandit in lag pursuit firmly in your rear quarter and you have no altitude for a split S or nose low lag roll. Your only remaining choice is to try to force an overshoot using a flat scissors. A reversal to the nose low side is always better but most folks find this very difficult to perform. When the bandit reaches guns range and you have got him as close to the lift vector as he is gonna get (those two HAVE to happen simultaneously in every defensive break turn) then you must reverse the turn to initiate the flat scissors. Unload the airplane (Zero G...not negative G) and max roll rate technique, preferably to the nose low side while closing the throttle and kicking out any drag devices you might have (Flaps, speed brakes). Once you near a roll of 180 degrees watch the bandit. The instant you perceive he is rolling to match your reversal, unload the airplane and max roll rate technique to reverse again. By this time you should HAVE to bring the throttle up to keep flying. You should be on the ragged edge of a stall fighting to keep the airplane from stalling. If you initiate the third reversal and haven't kicked the bandit ahead of your 3-9 line chances are you never will. Once you get him out in front of the 3-9 line you will probably have to keep the scissors going to keep him there for about two more reversals. Don't be tempted to relax your technique for a snapshot. The instant you relax the scissors technique for a snapshot the bandit will scoot back into your rear hemisphere. (feel free to pull the trigger while performing your best scissors, just make sure you are still max performing the airplane while shooting)

That is about the limit of the decision tree created by a defensive break turn.

Break Turn, evaluate the bandit at the crucial moment, and then choose a follow on maneuver (Lag roll nose high or low, Split S, or a flat scissors) The events that follow that three step process may result in a rolling scissors or defensive spiral. A descending rolling scissors will degrade into a flat scissors eventually. All rolling scissors in prop airplanes will degrade into descending rolling scissors.

Again, I think much of the issue is a confusion of terms. Mainly because we don't take a building block approach to learning ACM.

There are two maneuvers. Rolls and pulls. That is it. EVERYTHING else is a combination of those two maneuvers. (Well, I will allow the unloading to zero G is technically a PUSH)

A loop is a 360 degree pull. A split S is a 180 degree roll followed by a 180 degree pull.

maneuvers done without reference to another aircraft are primary maneuvers.

When you perform a maneuver with reference to a target aircraft it becomes a Basic Fighter Maneuver. A split S performed in order to attack a low bandit is a BFM. Same maneuver as a split S just done for fun.

A barrel roll is simultaneous rolling and pulling maneuver. When you perform a barrel roll in order to continuously place the lift vector  on (or slightly behind) the target (until angle off the tail decreases sufficiently) you are performing a lag displacement roll. Two aircraft engaged in simultaneous lag rolls against each other are in a rolling scissors.

A high yo yo is a simple nose high pull and a roll then another pull. What makes it an effective BFM is knowing that you pull the nose high to kill the closure then roll the lift vector to a point in front of the bandit and then pull again. If the bandit reverses in the middle of the yo yo it immediately creates a lag roll as shown in the following film

Yo Yo to Lag Roll Demo Film

[humble]

You cant "lag roll" on defense because the term is a pursuit term. Basically your confusing a barrel roll with a lag roll. Without doubt a successful scissors defense that forces an overshoot does put the defender in a pursuit mode and accordingly might very well finish as a "lag roll". If the overshoot is clear cut on the break turn then at the moment of overshoot a lag pursuit position is achieved and the defender now reverses back into the attackers fight path. A roll of some type may be involved but normally isn't needed. As a general rule however the initial break/scissors leaves the defender in a defensive position with the bogey forced out to a high AOT. The real issue at hand is the aggressors management of this AOT and his closure rate.

At this point you are on defense and you have no offensive capabilities beyond those you coerce from your opponent. In fact the ideal "defense" to the scissor focuses on exactly the same point you illustrate as ideal for your "lag roll"...recognizing that you are describing a "read and react" your left with the same scenario that your executing an out of plane barrel roll defense against a bogey with a high AOT and excessive closure rate. This is not a lag roll....

The scissor actually starts prior the initial break turn and the timing and "intensity" of the turn (as well as direction) is specific to the intent to scissor. Hence the scissor is "offered". The bogeys reaction at 1.5 - 1.2 normally clearly indicates his intent (not always). To coerce the desired flight path the normal initial turn (which you call the break turn) is a slightly nose low "flat" turn to minimize broadcasting your intent. This turn can be steepened considerably vs a foe intent on a guns pass leading directly to a barrel roll defense ala Greebo, Batfink, blukitty. This compression of the entire sequence to a single combined maneuver is an art form however.

Normally however the "ideal" is that the initial turn is the flat component of the scissor and the break executed into the bogey as he is forced toward the 3,9 line with a strong out of plane component "trapping" the con 45-90 degree's out of plane to your movement. Given a high AOT and excessive closure this will almost inevitably force an almost immediate overshoot. If the bogey counters the break then you reset and go to plan B but this is normally an indication of poor preparation prior to the scissor.

The greater issue is when the bogey sits on the scissor and initiates a proper "defense" thus controlling his closure rate while maintaining proper AOT. At this point defense is significantly more problematic and we get into "pilot stuff". The reality is that the basic undisguised "scissor/barrel roll offense" is very easy to counter.

Anyone who has ever worked with me knows that I take a very simple approach to training ACM and normally can get the light bulb to go on in about 10 minutes or so specific to any basic topic or issue. At that point a period of exploration (20 min to an hour) will normally leave the "student" with a much better overall understanding of cause and effect and a grasp of the initial "how and why" his normal behavior created undesired or expected results. At that point normally 2 or 3 points of focus are discussed that will allow for a bit of reprogramming to work on breaking those tendencies and allowing for the development of a stronger more effective feedback loop.

Btw "BFM" is basic flight maneuver and ACM is air combat maneuver

[Dawger]

You are the confused one.

A barrel roll is a primary maneuver.

When you perform a barrel roll against a target aircraft it becomes a relative maneuver. The purpose of the barrel is what makes it a lag displacement roll.

Any time you are in lead pursuit (one of the three pursuit curves, lead, lag and pure) and you need to get to lag pursuit a barrel roll into the target aircraft will accomplish that goal.

That is a lag displacement roll. Every lag displacement roll is a barrel roll. Not every barrel roll is a lag displacement roll.

You can use a lag displacement roll on offense or defense. You can use it any time you are in lead pursuit and need to get to lag pursuit.

How can I be in lead pursuit on defense?

It is quite easy.

Lead pursuit is flying a path to a point in space that the target aircraft is traveling towards. If you think about that concept for a few minutes you should begin to realize that anytime you get into the bandit's front quarter you are in lead pursuit. I like to call it excessive lead pursuit since the excess is likely to get you shot.

A lag displacement roll is a handy device on offense to reduce closure but it requires creation of a large amount of lead pursuit. It usually happens naturally.

When attacking a bandit the proper approach requires all three pursuit curves. lead pursuit to bring you to the bandit turn circle followed by pure pursuit as you approach his turn circle and lag pursuit to maintain a position on his turn circle.

This film shows the transition from lead pursuit to pure then lag as I approach his turn circle. View with trails on for best effect.

Lead to lag transition

Once establish on the target turn circle in lag pursuit I have a variety of Follow On Basic Fighter Maneuvers at my disposal to maintain the control point.

The high yo yo is one such follow on BFM. If the target turn circle is smaller than mine because of speed differential or turn performance and I am in Lag Pursuit a high yo yo is the appropriate maneuver.

In the following film you see i allow the bandit to create the lead pure lag pursuit transition as he breaks across my nose then, from a position of lag pursuit I execute a high yo yo by pulling nose high and rolling the lift vector to a point in front of the target (Lift vector placement in lead pursuit) then execute a pull to bring my velocity vector back to lag on the bandit on his turn circle. This maneuver uses a turn out of plane to make my turn circle into an egg shape, using gravity and geometry to keep my larger turn circle aligned with his.

High yo yo

In my earlier post I showed a film where a high yo yo quickly becomes a lag displacement roll if the target reverses. The yo yo starts from lag pursuit. The reversal by the bandit creates a large amount of lead pursuit.

Yo yo to lag roll

The identical situation exists when you force an overshoot across your tail. The instant the bandit is crossing your tail in an overshoot you are in lead pursuit and a lag displacement roll towards the target will take you from lead pursuit to lag pursuit as I show in this film

Lag roll reversal

That moment occurs at 19 seconds into the film. All of the conditions for a lag displacement roll are in place at that point. It really isn't any different than the lag rolls used to maintain offensive position.

[humble]

I'm not confused at all....

1) there is no such thing as a "primary" maneuver. The fact the Shaw labels a section of his book "basic fighter maneuvers" appears to be confusing you. The term "BFM" is well known to anyone who has a PPL or has gone thru any military or civilian flight training system.
http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/AirplaneFlyingHandbook/Basic_flight_maneuvers

Shaws "BFM" is actually basic "ACM" which is the execution of simple or complex flight maneuvers based on interaction a hostile opponent.
www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder5/T45/P-1289.PDF

The simple reality is that you can't put the cart before the horse and use of the terms "lead, lag or pure" while in a defensive posture are incorrect. As mentioned above a rolling scissor fight can be viewed as a "lag roll" fight however a combination of events has to ocure prior to this. The text on ACM linked above sums it up nicely...

Offensively, if you find yourself in a “roller,” you have made a mistake, which means you must strive to
remain offensive or disengage at the earliest opportunity. A rolling scissors is not a desirable maneuver
for an attacker because it limits opportunities for weapons employment


I'll try and illustrate the problem with your concept. If I dive in as an attacker on a con my plane will be in lag pursuit as I dive and transition to more or less pure pursuit as I stabilize. Lets stipulate the con wants to initiate a break turn at a range of 1.4. As my range closes and I am watching for a defensive move I see his rotation in preparation for the break. At this moment I am now in lag pursuit in relation to his lift vector (but not path of movement). In anticipation of hi break I pull a bit to establish a vertical offset. At this point I am in lead pursuit to his path of movement and out of plane lag pursuit to his lift vector. The defender seeing me pop up rolls back level and pushes his nose down. Now I am still in his rear hemisphere and technically in lead pursuit with a positive rate of closure. The bogey has moved his lift vector further ahead by going nose down in preparation of a vertical reversal but he is not in "lead pursuit". I expect the con to show on his break and he doesn't. Having lost the view I can continue my climb....or I can roll 180 degrees. As I begin my roll the con pulls up intending to zoom into my projected climb as my forward motion creates an overshoot. As I roll inverted I suddenly see the con in my "front up" view and instinctively pull the trigger popping him in the canopy from 200 ft. (I've actually got this on film a bunch of different times). The simple reality is that AOT trumps all else and that no amount of "lead" or "lag" matters if the other guy is behind you and capable of in plane positioning. A defensive plane is defensive till its not....as others have said the aggressor still controls the fight until the overshoot is actually achieved....

[Sonicblu]

I am going to oversimplify it for you PF. Only because your question sounded so much like mine.

TO start a rolling scissors JUST go into a barrel roll. Once both parties barrel roll it becomes a rolling scissors.

The other posts are technically right when the say the rolling scissors is not a offensive maneuver. The barrel roll is the offensive maneuver.

Just start using a barrel roll. I went to the TA and just started practising and fillming myself once you make five films go look at the film with trails on. and you will see how they are forming and what you did.

[humble]

The only problem there is timing. You cant force a rolling scissor. Now a barrel roll defense vs a high speed con is  very appropriate, Bat is an expert at that...

The post above was trying to sort out the AOT element from the manipulation of lift vector by describing a pretty common "porpoise" interaction. The reason almost all rolling scissors convert from flat is the need to manipulate the AOT. Normally a barrel roll defense does not translate to a rolling scissor in my experience. Either you get a blow thru pass or you get a lag roll/hi yoyo defense to the overshoot.

[Sonicblu]

Much respect humble.... my post was just to his initial question. And just in the frame of how to start a rolling scissors from my perspective.

I learned a lot from reading the many post in this thread they have help me with fine tuning and better understanding.

I could always do a rolling scissors once someone else started it i never knew it was just a barrel roll in its simplest form. Once Widewing walked me through it in the TA I was like uh duh.

Thanks WW