Skill Or Heridity

[Changeup]

Changeup, you have a couple of things wrong. Physical traits are generally inherited, and though rare can be influenced by outside factors. Exposure to heavy metals in the womb can nullify any inherited genetic traits, as can exposure to chemicals, gases etc... Also in order for your examples of athletes and their offspring, you forget that the mother has to have similar traits in order for the examples you use to be true by genetics alone...otherwise social environment is the dominating factor. Obviously a child with a birth defect will not be able to follow in it's parents footsteps, but then neither would a child of star athletes if that child was never exposed to the training that builds the necessary skills.

You have supported what I wrote.  Some are passed and some are not.  All things being equal.  Don't muddy the water with toxic exposure examples because that is managing the argument from the exception, not the rule.  Yes, both sides of the family tree contribute to genetic dispositions, both physical and mental, and as I said, you get them or you don't...

Good hand to eye coordination can be an inherited trait but it can also be learned. Through training and repetitive motion, people build muscle memory. Their brains memorize the motion that the eyes see, then register that to the nervous system and tells the body what muscles to activate in response to that input. The more times that motion is repeated the faster the response can get assuming nothing else is thrown in the mix. Take a look at Bruce Lee, nothing particularly outstanding in his genetics or upbringing. He became what he was as an adult by constant repetitive training and understanding of his body.

You're kidding right?  Do you believe that if you started your son or daughter on the same excercise and martial arts regimen that Bruce Lee was on that they could get there?  I wonder how many parents in China did that very thing at Jeet  Kune Do schools and their kids never got there...I wonder why?

The SEAL program pushes the mental and physical limits of individuals to extremes beyond basic training, but it cannot overcome the deep rooted fight or flight instincts that people have. When those people (Navy and Marines) enter the program they all know that at any time they have the choice to stop training. The only way they could lower the the atrition rate would be to remove that choice, then only the most resilient would enter the program to begin with and the starting number of candidates would be much lower.

I am very familiar with the BUD/S drop rates and the reasons as a ex-Naval Officer but I was making a point to Krusty that you missed.  Don't argue the exceptions....injury, lead poisoning etc.   Stick with the argument that someone's physical abilities are in large part determined from the genes...or their lack, thereof.  Some genetics are dominant so I can't tell you  what trumps what.

What you're seeing on television, is not the extent of what really happens in the SEAL program. There are a lot of reasons for the atrition rate and injuries account for a large portion of it.

I did the quote thingy wrong. Sorry..my answer is in there somewhere.

Changeup

[gyrene81]

You have supported what I wrote.  Some are passed and some are not.  All things being equal.  Don't muddy the water with toxic exposure examples because that is managing the argument from the exception, not the rule.  Yes, both sides of the family tree contribute to genetic dispositions, both physical and mental, and as I said, you get them or you don't...

Muddy what waters? In your effort to be right beyond reason, you ignore facts. Having any physical traits from birth is no guarantee that you will possess the ability to use them successfully without reinforcement in the way of training. You also seem to forget the fact that the examples in your mind are the exceptions and do not span multiple generations. There are many more outstanding athletes who lacked from birth some physical traits that are found in athletes than there are who were born with those same traits. They become the athletes they are through training, repetitive motion, muscle memory, etc...

You're kidding right?  Do you believe that if you started your son or daughter on the same excercise and martial arts regimen that Bruce Lee was on that they could get there?  I wonder how many parents in China did that very thing at Jeet  Kune Do schools and their kids never got there...I wonder why?

You're stuck on that little dirt track aren't you? Bruce Lee was not born with the physical abilities that he had by the time he died. If he was, he would never have gotten his bellybutton kicked when he was younger. That sir is absolute fact. Children could not withstand the rigors of the training that Bruce Lee put himself through, and no parent in their right mind would attempt to force their children to do so. Lee himself didn't start the serious training until he was an adult, after he injured his back during a training session.

Stick with the argument that someone's physical abilities are in large part determined from the genes...or their lack, thereof.  Some genetics are dominant so I can't tell you  what trumps what.

I am. Again, you are looking at the exceptions. Of course someone with a birth defect would not be capable of performing in the same manner as a "normal" person, even with training. But you can take an average person who has the mental fortitude to drive their bodies and make them successful at some physical activity with proper training. If you want to test that, blind fold yourself and have someone throw base balls at you for several hours a day...I can guarantee you that if you do that every day for the same length of time, at some point you are going to be able to catch those balls, because you have trained your body to do something it wasn't born with the ability to do. The fact that you weren't born with that ability will be evident the first few times you get hit with a ball. Stop doing it, and eventually you will be right back to where you started, getting hit.

[Jayhawk]

Oh geez, this is gonna be a long one. 

Though I lack the interest to keep up with the last half of this novel, it seems to simply be a nature vs. nurture debate, one that has been had many time before.

As with most problems, the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle.  But, never mind, continue.

[gyrene81]

Oh geez, this is gonna be a long one. 

Though I lack the interest to keep up with the last half of this novel, it seems to simply be a nature vs. nurture debate, one that has been had many time before.

As with most problems, the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle.  But, never mind, continue.

LOL...true. There is a lot to be said about the nature part. There a lot of people with the proper genetic makeup to excel over others with the same amount of effort, but there are just as many on the other end of the spectrum.

[thndregg]

LOL...true. There is a lot to be said about the nature part. There a lot of people with the proper genetic makeup to excel over others with the same amount of effort, but there are just as many on the other end of the spectrum.

My genetic characteristics & behavior in relation to Aces High must take after my late father- trying to thread a needle with a 10 pound sledgehammer.

[phatzo]

I heridited my AHII skills.
Best thread in ages.

[Guppy35]

Some know how i fly in aces high. Today i went throught the CAF airchives and discovered i am the great great grandson to 2 twins who were the number 2 and # 3 men in the original Thunderbirds Squadron flying in the late 1940's. the first plane they used was the p-47 Which was  my favorite plane and i could do a lot in. Then moved on the p-80's and so on to the jets they fly today. So I'm asking do you think I'm skilled or have i inherited the genes of 2 early genoration Pattillo's who happen to be combat pilots out of WWII.

Note: if u do not think I'm telling the truth look up thunderbirds original members there will be twins who last names are Pattillo. My last name is pattillo and we traced in the CAF (Commemorative Air Force) archives all the way to members in my family.

Forget the argument.  Very cool that you're related to the Patillo brothers.  Well known as 352nd Blue Nosers and Thunderbirds.

[Krusty]

Changeup doesn't really get it. He won't be swayed, either.

He really needs to read up on these things a bit more. Heck, even real life experience can tell you that the idea you learn things from your genetic past is ludicrous (and I don't mean Ludacris, the rapper).

I'll answer ONE of his silly notions though: Why do people wash out of flight school?

Because being a pilot, or even a combat pilot requires a large subset of skills and abilities. It's not one single yes/no pass/fail thing. Every person is unique. Even identical twins have their own differences that set them apart. The reason people wash out of flight school is because the sum events of their ENTIRE LIFE up to washing out have added up, and whatever that value is, the Air Force (or branch of your choice) said it wasn't enough to meet their standards.

Please note, they can try AGAIN, LATER, in another class, after studying harder, and learning more! The ever-changing dynamic of their education will be re-evaluated at that point in time.



You can't just say "You're genetically a pilot or you're not" -- and a lot of your other statements border on the ignorant.

[Kazaa]

You can achieve anything in life, as long as you're willing to sacrifice everything else.

[Boxboy]

The problem with people who think they know everything is that they really annoy those of us that do

[Changeup]

Physical skill sets are 100% genetic gentlemen...some skills are passed down and some are not but to say that specific physical skill sets are not genetic is uninformed.  

Good SA comes from experience....but if you can't fly the plane well...who cares how good your SA is?  The tools to have good SA ARE genetic...excellent vision, excellent spacial aperception, excellent depth perception....those are God given gifts.

I am not saying that EVERY physical skill is passed on to heirs....I am saying its biologically impossible not to pass some.  Hey, its how human genes work men and if you deny that, well, you need to go back to school.

This is my first post gents.  I never mentioned desire....never mentioned heart....never mentioned training.  You all have valid points that hard work can overcome...my point is overcome what?  I am saying that the "what" is genetic.  I am simply saying that people are genetically pre-disposed to be better at some things than other people.  If they never develop those genetic gifts for whatever reason, environment, entitlement, poor counseling, then they will never be able to realize the affect of those hereditary gifts.  I am sure that there are a ton of gifted people who could have been scholars, athletes, pilots, Phd's etc that never, ever got the opportunity to develop those potentials.  This is my only point:  If you take two different people with the same goal in mind and put them through the same training process from start to finish they will NOT be equally talented in the end.

[Changeup]

Krusty,

I can only speak from the Naval Aviation perspective...if you get washed or DOR  from any phase of flight school, unless it is an injury and even injury roll-back requires a ton of signatures, you are not getting back in bro.  That is a fact and it isn't arguable.   Again, there may be an exception here or there but that is not the rule.  Washed means the IP's found a problem that cannot be overcome and DOR means you don't want it anymore.

And Krusty, I never said that you are either genetically a pilot or you aren't....never.  You wanna make an argument make the argument but try not to put words in people's mouths.  That makes you look like all you can do is attack the person and not the argument which is small.   Go back and show me where I said that....or even made an argument to that effect.  Don't throw the ignorant statements around so easily..because so far I can't really see you staying on-subject here.  First it was mixing genetics with environment and then it became words I never said.  Good luck with that sir.

V/r

Changeup

[SHawk]

   I think hes right. My grandfather was a vacuum salesman and I suck at everything!

 

[Wreked]

Well I too can absolutely confirm that Genetic characteristics are NOT always passed down the line.

My great grandfather was known far and wide for an unusually long and thick...umm....ah....apendage!!
Girls flocked to his attentions.

I on the other hand.........

...cheers eh!

[Steve]

This thread is rife with FAIL.