Author Topic: Skill Or Heridity  (Read 4008 times)

Offline Changeup

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5688
      • Das Muppets
Re: Skill Or Heridity
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2010, 09:43:08 PM »
Im sure you're a great guy Krusty but you are having some trouble with your argument...just because you have a good teacher and a great environment doesn't guarantee you ability.  Now, look at all the pros that had kids that DIDN'T make it....don't argue it that way because you'll lose.

I never said that genetics control everything did I?  Read it again and your example of the Chinese is E N V I R O N M E N T A L bro...not genetic...all of your examples are environmental.  You have to be predisposed with the necessary skills and that is genetic.

The redhair issue is a generalization, no different than native Americans being drunks with long black hair....its environmental not genetic and no, I don't believe that Irish are drunks...I do believe that the Irish are genetically pre-disposed to have RED HAIR...which is true...them drinking a lot?  Hell, that's their environment....everyone knows why God created liquor....so the Irish wouldn't rule the world!

Changeup
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Changeup

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5688
      • Das Muppets
Re: Skill Or Heridity
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2010, 09:44:29 PM »
eugenics.

Look it up.

It scared (scares?) multiple generations.

Unless you believe that blacks are genetically predisposed to be criminals? Or you think that jews are greedy? Or you think that the Polish are genetically stupid, or the French genetically cowardly.


Racism takes a lot of forms. A lot of them are related to genetics, lineage, and ignorance.

But virtually all rascism is ENVIRONMENTAL...parents talking like idiots, uncles and aunts showing hatred...come on...use your head on this.
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline maddafinga

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1400
      • The Musketeers Squadron
Re: Skill Or Heridity
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2010, 09:45:59 PM »
Im sure you're a great guy Krusty but you are having some trouble with your argument...just because you have a good teacher and a great environment doesn't guarantee you ability.  Now, look at all the pros that had kids that DIDN'T make it....don't argue it that way because you'll lose.

I never said that genetics control everything did I?  Read it again and your example of the Chinese is E N V I R O N M E N T A L bro...not genetic...all of your examples are environmental.  You have to be predisposed with the necessary skills and that is genetic.

The redhair issue is a generalization, no different than native Americans being drunks with long black hair....its environmental not genetic and no, I don't believe that Irish are drunks...I do believe that the Irish are genetically pre-disposed to have RED HAIR...which is true...them drinking a lot?  Hell, that's their environment....everyone knows why God created liquor....so the Irish wouldn't rule the world!

Changeup

Just about totally off topic here, but my best friend in the entire world is 3/4 Native American (I guess Indian is offensive to some people, but they use it to describe themselves all the time) and he has blond hair.  

Ironically, the part of him that isn't Indian is Irish.  
madda
The Musketeers Squadron
http://www.musketeers.org/
When the Dude is recognized in the World, Undudeness is seen everywhere... Dude De Ching
http://dudeism.com/tao/

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: Skill Or Heridity
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2010, 09:47:05 PM »
Changeup, you keep saying skills are genetic. They are not.

Your brain may be able to handle the mathematical side of logic better because GENETICALLY you have a slightly larger frontal lobe (or whatever), but this does not translate into SKILLS you inherit from your genes. This means you can LEARN skills, it means you may be good at them once you grasp them, but that doesn't mean you can skip the learning.

"Oh yeah, my father was a 747 pilot. I've never been in a plane before, but let's take this baby up. All 200 passengers strapped in?"

^-- you see how absurd that would be?

All skills are environmental. You're saying they're genetic. Physical characteristics are genetic. Learned abilities are not.

Offline Nemisis

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4086
      • Fightin 49'ers
Re: Skill Or Heridity
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2010, 10:00:57 PM »
Things like hand eye coordination, good reflexes, and timing are the most important 'talents' needed to be uber at this game.

agreed. When I'm dogfighting, I don't concisouly think about the manuvers I use, I see that I'm in a good rolling plane with a spit on me, and I start flying scissors. Or I see that I'm in a P-40 with a Ki-84 on me, so I nose over.

Once the manuvers are learned, they can be used without concious thought (for me anyway). I got a PM about my lift vector after a fight. The guy said I could have got him if I had put my lift vector on him in the rolling scissors; I didn't know I had started the manuver, but when I checked the film, sure enough, I had used rolling scissors.


Point is that reflexes, timing, and hand I coordination are the most important things to have in AH2. All of which are things you can't inherit from your ancestors.
All man needs to be happy is a home, his wife, and a place in the world

Col. 49Nem, Armor commander of the 49th

Offline Changeup

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5688
      • Das Muppets
Re: Skill Or Heridity
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2010, 10:04:35 PM »
Krusty...bro....you keep changing your argument.  Flying a 747 takes experience yes and flying transport aircraft in a non-combat environment is quite a bit different than flying high-requirement fighter aircraft in a threatening environment.  Look...maybe the problem is our base beliefs....you believe that anyone can "learn" to fly a fighter aircraft right?  I believe that anyone can learn to fly one as well...agreed?

Now, a person that has better vision (can you learn to have better vision? Please God, don't say yes), faster reflexes is going to KILL the other guy every time with everything else being equal.  

Boxers have fast hands...but some start out in life with NATURALLY FAST HANDS...the ones that don't almost always become POWER hitters, not repetition hitters....do you know why??  Because power can be achieved through strength conditioning but speed development has a point of diminishing marginal return.  Sugar Ray Leonard?  Always beat Hearns, Hagler and Duran...why, faster hands....all of them had the same experience, same attitude etc.  I have no idea if Sugar Ray got his quickness from his dad or his mom or his uncle but he didnt develop it because you can only go so far with hand quickness...then you move to something you can control which is strength.

Why doesnt everyone make it through flight school Krusty?  If you got that far in the military, surely they can "teach" you the skills and you have already shown the desire?  Using your argument, the military should give personality tests to see if someone wants it bad enough to make it through the training evolutions.

What about the SEAL program?  Can't they teach you to be tough mentally and physically?  Why is the attrition rate 88% in BUD/S?  I mean come on...generally the candidates have already been vetted and have been in the Navy for 2 years so lets just TEACH them to be SEALS....

You know better than that

Changeup

"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Nemisis

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4086
      • Fightin 49'ers
Re: Skill Or Heridity
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2010, 10:20:59 PM »
You can inherit physical characteristics from your ancestors: Hair color, eye color, facial features, height, and even your mussle type (fast or slow twitch).

I suppose you can aruge that you can inherit personality to some degree, though I feel that is at least partially an enviornmental thing, while genetics may give a push or a nudge here and there.


But what you CAN'T inherit is learned skills: Math, science, football, etc. It CAN'T be done. Most of the people in my family for the past 3 generations suck at math. My grandmother on my mothers side didn't even go to college, and yet I understand problems that completely baffle my peers, and even my math teacher from 2 years ago (he is a friend of my family).
All man needs to be happy is a home, his wife, and a place in the world

Col. 49Nem, Armor commander of the 49th

Offline Changeup

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5688
      • Das Muppets
Re: Skill Or Heridity
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2010, 10:22:31 PM »
Nemesis....those things in your quote box are genetic bro with the exception of timing...that's experience and a great computer  :D...thanks for helping me with my point.

Changeup
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Changeup

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5688
      • Das Muppets
Re: Skill Or Heridity
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2010, 10:27:27 PM »
You can inherit physical characteristics from your ancestors: Hair color, eye color, facial features, height, and even your mussle type (fast or slow twitch).

I suppose you can aruge that you can inherit personality to some degree, though I feel that is at least partially an enviornmental thing, while genetics may give a push or a nudge here and there.


But what you CAN'T inherit is learned skills: Math, science, football, etc. It CAN'T be done. Most of the people in my family for the past 3 generations suck at math. My grandmother on my mothers side didn't even go to college, and yet I understand problems that completely baffle my peers, and even my math teacher from 2 years ago (he is a friend of my family).

Oh wow....does slow twitch muscle help or hurt with reflex manuevers?  What about eyesight?  Some people see in as low as 45 fps...most see in 60 fps...dogs see in 75 fps...which means that if you had the eyesight of a dog, you would recognize the opponents aircraft turning sooner than someone with 45 fps recognition....who's the better fighter pilot bro?  the 60 fps person or the 45?  Teach them to have better vision....I don't think you can do it.

Changeup

PS - I never said that learning was genetic....go back and read my posts.  I said physical skills....stay on the subject. 
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 10:30:09 PM by Changeup »
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline FiLtH

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6448
Re: Skill Or Heridity
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2010, 10:32:27 PM »
   I think hes right. My grandfather was a vacuum salesman and I suck at everything!

~AoM~

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Re: Skill Or Heridity
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2010, 10:33:23 PM »
I think the only flying gene you aquired was the "flying out of the truck" gene and you got that one from your brother.

 :noid
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: Skill Or Heridity
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2010, 10:35:08 PM »
Changeup, you have a couple of things wrong. Physical traits are generally inherited, and though rare can be influenced by outside factors. Exposure to heavy metals in the womb can nullify any inherited genetic traits, as can exposure to chemicals, gases etc... Also in order for your examples of athletes and their offspring, you forget that the mother has to have similar traits in order for the examples you use to be true by genetics alone...otherwise social environment is the dominating factor. Obviously a child with a birth defect will not be able to follow in it's parents footsteps, but then neither would a child of star athletes if that child was never exposed to the training that builds the necessary skills.

Good hand to eye coordination can be an inherited trait but it can also be learned. Through training and repetitive motion, people build muscle memory. Their brains memorize the motion that the eyes see, then register that to the nervous system and tells the body what muscles to activate in response to that input. The more times that motion is repeated the faster the response can get assuming nothing else is thrown in the mix. Take a look at Bruce Lee, nothing particularly outstanding in his genetics or upbringing. He became what he was as an adult by constant repetitive training and understanding of his body.

The SEAL program pushes the mental and physical limits of individuals to extremes beyond basic training, but it cannot overcome the deep rooted fight or flight instincts that people have. When those people (Navy and Marines) enter the program they all know that at any time they have the choice to stop training. The only way they could lower the the atrition rate would be to remove that choice, then only the most resilient would enter the program to begin with and the starting number of candidates would be much lower.

What you're seeing on television, is not the extent of what really happens in the SEAL program. There are a lot of reasons for the atrition rate and injuries account for a large portion of it.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline bcadoo

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 685
Re: Skill Or Heridity
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2010, 10:44:31 PM »
I disagree. The gene pool is a very delicate thing. Your DNA has traces to the first man. It is very possible that you can inherit genes from your great great relatives. You  See genes get carried from genoration to genoration.You dont know it but you will allways have a connection in your gene pool to your ancestors. It is very possible that i inherited genes from them.

But you only inherit half from each parent, so it dilutes each generation, and the only great, great relatives you would inherit from would be direct ancestors. (not aunts and uncles, cousins, etc.....)
The fight is the fun........Don't run from the fun!
"Nothin' cuts the taste of clam juice like a big hunk o' chocolate" - Rosie O'Donnell

Offline mensa180

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4010
Re: Skill Or Heridity
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2010, 10:57:53 PM »
What you are proposing is something that has been discredited for large organisms such as ourselves, see Lamarckism.  There is debate about the possibility of this in micro-organisms.  
inactive
80th FS "Headhunters"
Public Relations Officer

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: Skill Or Heridity
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2010, 11:01:12 PM »
But you only inherit half from each parent, so it dilutes each generation, and the only great, great relatives you would inherit from would be direct ancestors. (not aunts and uncles, cousins, etc.....)
ROFL...I thank you for bringing that up. I didn't want to be the one to break it to him but, unless his great great grandparents were really into sharing...everything.

i am the great great grandson to 2 twins

Even then, the probability of being a direct decendant of both twins? Twins is always two right? Or does he mean two sets of twins married each other?  :headscratch:
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett