HT talks 4XBuffs

[Alpo]

Originally posted by AKcurly


In the main arena, have you ever seen 5 planes attack one buff?  

curly

Yes... but I'm pretty sure it was followed up with much complaining about kill stealing and several "check-six" warnings

[Wotan]

The sturmgruppen page is down or i would fill this thread with numerous lw acounts of attacking buffs from ded 6. They said the closer they got to a buff the better off the were. Not true in ah.

The buff gunners rarely "blew planes up " they hit things like eng and oil. But even then out right kills were rare. Buff guns now for what ever reason (ht and pyro have said they are the same as the other 50 cal armed planes) kill fighters with ease.

Buffs are not hard to kill. But take the side gunner fer instance they stood up and had to swing their 50s around. I doudt they could track a 350mph 400 mph fighter.

Karnak i have killed plenty of buffs. A squad mate of mine killed damn near 100 one tour. We are good shots but rarely if ever  knock out buff gunners . I believe the left inside eng on a b17 powered the hydraulics for the turrets. I have never seen a turret disabled in ah this way.

I take ht word for it that buff guns are ballistically correct. Whats "unrealistic" is the fact that buff guns hit and kill pretty regularly at long range. I am not "whining about buffs" and i doudt that many folks will agree they are too tough to kill.

I think they take too little damage to be killed but that fer what ever reasons this is offset by their "lethality". Buff gunners claimed a huge number of fighter kills in ww2 in actually only a small percentage we killed by buff guns. If the sturgruppen site was still up i would post a link.

There was one account of a8s attacking a buff formation of 16 that was boxed and stacked. The pilot account said at that as they approached from the 6 "it was like running around in a shower trying not to get wet". But as they closed on a b17 he used 13mm to kill the tail gunner then 3cm into the wing he killed 1 then another. I have read numerous accounts like this. I think the the strum groups lost 3 190s to every 1 buff killed. The majority being killed by escort aircraft.

12 o'clock attacks were discourage by goring who believed that the closure rates and the smaller profile made it tougher to score kills. Most buff films i ve seen and accounts i read are from 6 or near 6 o'clock attacks.

In bw i killed 10 buffs and had 5 assists in 4 frames all from ded six. Theres a trick i use where i come in fast and use my rudder to slide across the buffs 6. Gunnery is harder this way because you cant "trust your gunsite" . I killed 5 in 1 pass.

So my point is buffs are by no means hard to kill. But for whatever reason (even with their lo kd) they are much more lethal then real life. Most buffers are new guys in ah (the ones i see) So simply saying time in the gunner position compared to rl gunner wont cut it. If as ht says the 50 cal are correct then what is it that allows for any noob to up a buff a get kills? Its got to be the stabilty of the platform and the icons.

I think ah buff lethality is good for gameplay but from what i have read it hardly matches real life accounts of those who killed them regularly. I think buffs (wing tips and tail sections) are bit to fragile.

I do think the current buff model with the laser accurate single bomb stuff takes no skill. I welcome the improvements. I do have concerns over lag and the 32 or 64 plane limit. HT says that shouldnt be a problem but I have doudts. Big week was laggy so were the old 15 buff hq raids back in the day.

In an arena of 400 folks the whole arena could bog down with hundreds of buffs. Also will they be "follow the leader" or follow the flight path? Will they be able to toggle salvo and drop 1 bomb at a time? Will each buff get a different bomb load? Will their be a perk value to the 4 buff formation? will they be limited to med or large fields? How will kills be scored? How will il2s, ju87, vals, ju88, tbm (if when we get 1) work?

Anyway my 2 cents.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by whels
unlike AH, in RL a lone b17 vs a lone fighter, fighter wins. in AH
b17 wins more then fighter.

Oh?  The strengths of buffs in AH are easily overcome by intelligent tactics.  A single fighter with sound tactics will defeat or neutralize the better buff pilots just about every time.

Think of it this way.  Would you turnfight a Zeke on the deck if you're in a 190D9?  Would you go headon with a 110G2 if you're in a 202?  Not unless you enjoy dying.

Why then do people complain constantly about imaginary superpowers possessed by buffs in AH?  Like any plane, they have strengths and weaknesses.  Exploit their weaknesses and don't play to their strengths.  Attack fast, attack at odd angles, and don't fixate on them for an extended period of time unless they're distracted.  The problem as I see it is that most players utilize unsound tactics against buffs which wind up killing them, but instead of blaming their tactical errors for their deaths, they blame the alleged uberness of the buffs.

I wouldn't blame the "uberness" of the Zeke in outturning me in the first example , nor the "uberness" of the 110 for the relative superiority of its nose guns in the latter.  These are things that we know they do better.  So why people continue to complain about buffs when they play to their strengths baffles me.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[AKcurly]

the b17s guns in RL were no match for fighter attacks, otherwise they wouldnt have needed
the p51s would they?

whels

[/B]

Whels, I don't know much about it - not really arguing.  But, I've read the primary tactic was to fly to the front of the buff stream and then HO the buffs.  With A8s, I imagine it was an effective strategy.  But, this tactic was used before the introduction of the nose guns in the b17, right?

curly

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by Tac
Have you also considered curly, that the gunners on a buff in WW2 would be killed almost instantly if a fighter got a burst into him?

Sit in a tail of a buff in AH and it will take nearly half your ammo into the buff's tail before you can kill the tail gunner..and even then the player is STILL in the tail gun, but he's really shooting from the ball and top turret shooting through the fuselage.

Tac, I'm sorry, but I believe you are in error.  I fly buffs a lot -  2 or 3 missions every night and it's a *RARE* buff mission when I return with all guns working.

Sometimes, I get bounced by a high guy I didn't see.  Almost always, he gets the top gun in a B17.  If I get bounced by an unseen low guy, it's the belly gun and sometimes the rear gun.

Tac, it happens all the time to me.

curly

[Rude]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
K West I have slightly more than 6 months online in AH and WB and I still say it's porked.

Evidently, it is an issue for you, not the majority of players. There is not a member in the 13th that cannot kill any buff in one pass...pop it like a cork. The ability of the gunner is insignificant as to whether we are successful or not.

You should work more on your buff killing technique and less on your whining.

[NUTTZ]

I think this will be cool. I think the buff vs fighters is pretty much balanced as it stands now. I have no problem killing buffs, or killing fighters while in a buff.  Single buffs are Deadmeat as IRL. A formation is deadly, But there should be a trade off, Multiple buffs for bomb drift and a lesser degree of accuracy. I wasn't online when HiTech was discussing this so I'm not sure what he's doing with the bombsight.

NUTTZ

[CavemanJ]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying


Oh?  The strengths of buffs in AH are easily overcome by intelligent tactics.  A single fighter with sound tactics will defeat or neutralize the better buff pilots just about every time.

Think of it this way.  Would you turnfight a Zeke on the deck if you're in a 190D9?  Would you go headon with a 110G2 if you're in a 202?  Not unless you enjoy dying.

Why then do people complain constantly about imaginary superpowers possessed by buffs in AH?  Like any plane, they have strengths and weaknesses.  Exploit their weaknesses and don't play to their strengths.  Attack fast, attack at odd angles, and don't fixate on them for an extended period of time unless they're distracted.  The problem as I see it is that most players utilize unsound tactics against buffs which wind up killing them, but instead of blaming their tactical errors for their deaths, they blame the alleged uberness of the buffs.

I wouldn't blame the "uberness" of the Zeke in outturning me in the first example , nor the "uberness" of the 110 for the relative superiority of its nose guns in the latter.  These are things that we know they do better.  So why people continue to complain about buffs when they play to their strengths baffles me.

-- Todd/Leviathn

How many times in the real world did a B-17 or B-26 roll 60degrees to one side (the limit of turning from the gunposition with rudders in AH) to bring more guns to bear or because the tail gun was out of ammo?

I've had plenty of verra nice setups to attack buffs spoiled by this mickey mouse gaming roadkille.  Ya reach position, roll in, and while you watch this huge assed lumbering kite (full bomb load on board) stands on its wing and piroettes to put you at his 6oc in a turn you have to envy.

What's really rediculous is the idjits that do this at 25k+
Above 25,000ft turn for turn the fluffs out turn the fighters.  And if the fighter does out turn the buff for the shot he ends up dead for his trouble because that high he can't keep enough E to shoot and avoid being killed.
That's more that just game play concession, it's out right lunacy, and one of the reasons I gave up being one of the top buff drivers to learn to fly/fight in fighters.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Rude youre welcome to post a film where you pop Festers, Fariz's, Ute's or for lesser extent, my buff in 1 pass and walk away to tell of it.

I seem to kill 10x the buffs averagely / tour compared to you.

Ju88 and lanc won't count because theyre doable. I'm talking about b26 and b17.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by CavemanJ
How many times in the real world did a B-17 or B-26 roll 60degrees to one side (the limit of turning from the gunposition with rudders in AH) to bring more guns to bear or because the tail gun was out of ammo?

[/B]

Comparison to real world buff capabilities is beside the point.  If the fact is that a buff can do this in AH, then tactics may be properly adjusted to account for it.  It's just like any other plane matchup in AH... regardless of the accuracy of the flight model, each plane has strengths and weaknesses unique to it.  Don't fly to its strengths, and you'll rarely die.

I've had plenty of verra nice setups to attack buffs spoiled by this mickey mouse gaming roadkille.  Ya reach position, roll in, and while you watch this huge assed lumbering kite (full bomb load on board) stands on its wing and piroettes to put you at his 6oc in a turn you have to envy.

[/B]

Then take that into account when setting up buffs in the future.  If you know it can do that, you can neutralize it.

What's really rediculous is the idjits that do this at 25k+
Above 25,000ft turn for turn the fluffs out turn the fighters.  And if the fighter does out turn the buff for the shot he ends up dead for his trouble because that high he can't keep enough E to shoot and avoid being killed.

[/B]

Would a 202 pilot complain about dying to a P-47 at 30k?  Why should he?  Why would the 190D9 pilot complain that a Zeke can outturn him on the deck?  If a buff can outturn a fighter at 25k, then good for it!  The buff pilot is using sound tactics within the parameters of the flight model, and the fighter pilot turning with it has utilized poor tactics.

That's more that just game play concession, it's out right lunacy, and one of the reasons I gave up being one of the top buff drivers to learn to fly/fight in fighters.

Even with the capabilities that you've mentioned, I don't consider buffs to be "uber."  Why?  Because generally I take into account what they can and can't do, and I know that it's a matter of adjustment and understanding.  Every time that I've died to buffs in the last year, I can honestly say that it was due my own tactical failures and not due to some supernatural qualities of the AH buffs.  I understood their capabilities, but I failed to follow my own advice in engaging them.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Wilbus]

I think HT said that BOTH the gunner AND the pilot will be able to gun, if I understand it right, then 2 attackers can be fired at at the same time with 2 buffs shooting at each.

A new challange has shown it self, bring it on!

[Tac]

ive sat in the tails of many b17s that were on their norden doing their bomb run, splattered the tail with 200 rnd of 50 cal and nearly all my 20mm cannon from a P-38s nose at d100 or less.. and the fugger tail gun shot me out. If that aint outright roadkill I dont know what is. B17s had no armour to speak of, those 200 rounds wouldve made confetti out of the tail gunner and very likely turned both waist gunners and the top turret gunner into maggot chow. Not in AH though.. oh ho no.  

When I fly buffs (mainly B-26's), the tail gun only dies after an extremely long barrage of hits. Methinks it needs to hit the lil' gun barrel thingy to knock it out, dunno.

"If the fact is that a buff can do this in AH, then tactics may be properly adjusted to account for it. It's just like any other plane matchup in AH... regardless of the accuracy of the flight model, each plane has strengths and weaknesses unique to it. Don't fly to its strengths, and you'll rarely die."

I'd love to know your method of shooting down a 30k buff that keeps a constant turn rate. Its not a matter of tactics or strengths and weaknesses, its a matter of how well you can abuse the flight model. Hopefully next version, with dispersion set in, 30k buffs will be useless and this blatant abuse will be worthless.

BTW, get a b17 or lancaster to 30k with 100% or 75% fuel and see if you can pull those BS constant turns or hard manouver.. the wings will snap out or you will spin.

In any case, all this will change IF next version has disperion in the bombs.. the higher they go the less they hit. What really worries me is now giving 1 or 2 people command of 40+ guns on buffs and being able to fire them at one spot (and even worse if they still shoot through fuselage.. and it would be terrible if those guns fire through their own buffs the same way field acks fire through hangars!). I'll just wait and see.. who knows, maybe fighters will become obsolete and we can all take 4 b17 flights and smack everyone down at d1.8.. joy to the world!

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Rude youre welcome to post a film where you pop Festers, Fariz's, Ute's or for lesser extent, my buff in 1 pass and walk away to tell of it.

I seem to kill 10x the buffs averagely / tour compared to you.

Ju88 and lanc won't count because theyre doable. I'm talking about b26 and b17.

No problem at all. If I execute a proper attack, a fast dive from 10 ock, 2 ock..or from low 12 ock, I kill them quick with a p-47. One pass is all it takes.

[Beefcake]

ok about the 48 gun thing, as you know it can't be done by a lone or x4 buffs. At worst you could have 24 (Tail, Top, Ball Turrets) firing on you toward the rear or 32 (chin/nose, Top and ball turrets) firing on you if you choose to ho.

Also Tac about the gun damage thing. There are sometimes I will take what seems like a 1000 pings and never take a lick of damage. There are other times I get hit one or twice and lose everything. I guess it's the luck of the draw. But Tac....no offense man, but if you're dying to the tail guns of a B17, that means you're attacking it wrong buddy.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

So leviathn in essence youre saying that the players should utilize the current parameters even if theyre porked for their advantage? That has a name, gaming the game.

We don't want to go on that road do we?