Affirmative Action

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by mietla
Certain outcomes are simply "not acceptable" in certain (PC) circles, does not matter whether true or not. As a result most people don't want to touch this topic with a 10 ft pole. Those who do are not critiqued for their work, they are spat on and discredited.

I haven't spat on anyone yet.  But I have noticed everyone stay away from one possible reason.  Black people are generally stupider then white people.  And white people are generally stupider then Asians.  

Of course in order for that to be true then the SAT statistics would have to carry over to their equivalants in other countries.  


Or the problem is with the differences in the way people are trained for the test.

[capt. apathy]

why do you think that blacks do worse then whites on SATs?


one expaination for this could be that many white kids (myself included) never took the SAT's.  I didn't take them because as a realist I knew that with my mediocre grades and my parents lack of funding, there was no realistic way I could have gone to college anyway.  if I'd had the programs available to me that blacks do, I would have taken them, on the chance I could have gone.

basicly what I'm saying here is maybe the whites who would have scored lower and brought the average down for us didn't bother to take the tests because there is no 'help' for under funded white kids.  

but the black kids know that the gov't, naacp, united negro college fund, and many other racist organisation are there to help them.  so they give it a shot, if they score decent they get a shot at college.

 I used the time my freinds where taking the test to go look for work.


I don't know if this is the reason for the lower scores but it makes more sense than biased test when nobody can produce a biased question.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by mietla
And don't think you've "suckered" me into this. I knew exactly where this is going and I know what's next.

Congratulations, you win a cookie.

[NUKE]

I am going to ask some racially biased questions.........

1. What does 2x2 equal?
2. What is the function of an adverb?
3. what is 10% of 100?
4. The Moon Orbits the Earth ( true or false)
5. What is the square root of 16?
6. What is the main difference between a mammal and fish
7. Name all the known planets in our solar system
8. Name the minimum requirments for a complete sentence.
9. What is a light year?
10. How many states does the United States have?



Can you see how I slanted all of my questions based on the need for an answer based on fact?

I deliberatley biased my questions to rule out people that didnt know the anwers.. .... what a concept

[midnight Target]

Capt. Ap.

Well, at least you will acknowledge that there are experts in the field that believe the testing is biased, and that there are some statistics that indicate that there is a racial discrepency in test scores.

If the above is true, then why wait for someone on this board to provide you with clear cut evidence?  If you are interested then I'm sure you will find the examples you are seeking. Here are some specifics though:

from http://www.fairtest.org/facts/genderbias.htm

it is common knowledge among test-makers that gender differences can be manipulated by simply selecting different test items. Dwyer cites as an example the fact that, for the first several years the SAT was offered, males scored higher than females on the Math section but females achieved higher scores on the Verbal section. ETS policy-makers determined that the Verbal test needed to be "balanced" more in favor of males, and added questions pertaining to politics, business and sports to the Verbal portion. Since that time, males have outscored females on both the Math and Verbal sections. Dwyer notes that no similar effort has been made to "balance" the Math section, and concludes that, "It could be done, but it has not been, and I believe that probably an unconscious form of sexism underlies this pattern. When females show the superior performance, 'balancing' is required; when males show the superior performance, no adjustments are necessary."

and



 

Even the test-maker admits that high school grades predict first-year college grades better than ACT scores do. In fact, adding the ACT to the high school record does not significantly improve predictions.

Colleges that have made the SAT I optional report that their applicant pools are more diverse and that there has been no drop off in academic quality.

And here is just one example of a racially biased question -

STRAWBERRY:RED

(A) peach:ripe (B) leather:brown (C) grass:green (D) orange:round (E) lemon:yellow

This is a sample analogy from the SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test). For most, the answer seems straightforward, (E) lemon:yellow, but this question has been "flagged" and dropped from the test because of its racial bias against individuals of Hispanic ethnicity. These individuals, as proposed by one SAT panel member, may or may not be familiar with yellow lemons, but green lemons, thereby making this question unfair to a particular group (ETS, 1997).

[mietla]

Originally posted by Thrawn
I haven't spat on anyone yet.  

I'm not accusing you of this. I was not referring to you and me exchangeing our opinions.

I was referring to researchers who work in this field and publish un-PC findings. Everyone's work is a subject of scrutiny and critique. If it is wrong, tear it apart and show the faulty logic. That's the way it works. Instead, personal attacks and name calling are used in order to discredit the work not as being wrong/faulty, but as "coming from this guy who we know is...", and therefore not even worth the review.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by capt. apathy
why do you think that blacks do worse then whites on SATs?


one expaination for this could be that many white kids (myself included) never took the SAT's.  I didn't take them because as a realist I knew that with my mediocre grades and my parents lack of funding, there was no realistic way I could have gone to college anyway.  if I'd had the programs available to me that blacks do, I would have taken them, on the chance I could have gone.

I don't know.  You chances of going to University as a white person was better then your chances if you were black.

And thank god for the scholarships.  No only does a black student have to deal with a generally poorer quality of education.  They also have do deal with the fact that they are generally coming from a poorer back round.

[NUKE]

And here is just one example of a racially biased question -

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
STRAWBERRY:RED

(A) peach:ripe (B) leather:brown (C) grass:green (D) orange:round (E) lemon:yellow

This is a sample analogy from the SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test). For most, the answer seems straightforward, (E) lemon:yellow, but this question has been "flagged" and dropped from the test because of its racial bias against individuals of Hispanic ethnicity. These individuals, as proposed by one SAT panel member, may or may not be familiar with yellow lemons, but green lemons, thereby making this question unfair to a particular group (ETS, 1997).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How exactly is that racially biased? What if I grew up in South America as a white but didn't know that lemmons could be yellow, does that discriminate against whites?

What does race have to do with the question? The question may have more than one correct answer, but that dosnt make it a racial question.

Lots of questions on tests can have that element of inaccuracy..... and I have seen many . I have seen questions that have more than one correct answer. Does that mean I was discriminated by a racial question?

Use your head ..........

[mietla]

Originally posted by Thrawn
Black people are generally stupider then white people.  And white people are generally stupider then Asians.  
 

For this you'd have to resort to IQ tests. SAT's test your knowledge not IQ. IQ test does the opposite, it tests your intelligence not the education/knowledge.


IQand education are (almost) orthogonal.

It is possible to be an ignorant genius, just as it is possible to be an educated dim wit ( to some extent of course).

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by mietla
Instead, personal attacks and name calling are used in order to discredit the work not as being wrong/faulty, but as "coming from this guy who we know is...", and therefore not even worth the review.

Gotcha.

[capt. apathy]

seems that that question is more biased by where you live than your race.

for example a white kid from the same area would be just as likely to get the question wrong. (so the question would be equaly biased against him)

then in an effort to make things 'equal' AA would give bonus points to hispanic kids.  

the end result is that thanks to AA
1.  hispanic kids from that area have the bias against them nutralised. (wtg AA)

2.  hispanic kids from other who got the question right got bonus points they didn't deserve (to bad for everybody else because giving one group points they don't deserve in effect takes points from others) discrimanation for all others including those who where screwed by the original question.  AA has now screwed more people than it helped

3.  the white kid from that area not only got screwed by the first question but again by AA.  in other words doubling the bias.

so much for AA doing more good than harm

[NUKE]

I can see them now.....

"Hey, This question about lemons..... I bet we can weed out some Hispanics with it.."  Yeah, good idea, no hispanic would know that a lemmon can be yellow....lets use it"

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by mietla
For this you'd have to resort to IQ tests. SAT's test your knowledge not IQ. IQ test does the opposite, it tests your intelligence not the education/knowledge.

Thanks.

"IQ and Race
The three great strategies for obscuring an issue are to introduce irrelevancies, to arouse prejudice, and to excite ridicule.... ---Bergen Evans, The Natural History of Nonsense

"IQ" stands for "intelligence quotient." A person's IQ is supposed to be a measure of that person's intelligence: the higher the IQ number, the greater the intelligence. This is inaccurate, however, since it assumes that there is only one kind of intelligence. Most people recognize that there are some people with fantastic memories, some with mathematical minds, some with musical genius, some with mechanical expertise, some with good vocabularies, some good at seeing analogies, some good at synthesizing, some at unifying, etc. Some people excel at more than one of these behaviors. It would be more accurate to speak of human intelligences than of intelligence. An IQ test, therefore, should be considered a measure of some kinds of intelligence, but not all. The most accurate claim one can make about an IQ test is that it measures IQ.

The research on IQ and race by Arthur Jensen, William Shockley, Herrnstein and Murray (The Bell Curve) and others have not found any significant correlations between race and intelligence. They have found correlations between race and IQ, which has been used to support the notion that some races are inferior to others."


More interesting reading on this topic.

http://skepdic.com/iqrace.html

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by NUKE
I can see them now.....

"Hey, This question about lemons..... I bet we can weed out some Hispanics with it.."  Yeah, good idea, no hispanic would know that a lemmon can be yellow....lets use it"

Even if it wasn't placed there on purpose, does that make it less racially biased?

[mietla]

Originally posted by Thrawn
Gotcha.

Gotcha?... Gotcha on what?

That was my line in a next round