Powells speech so far...

[ccvi]

Please stop argueing about what I wrote. If I type something it's usually to tease some people with the truth

When I was at university I attended a lecture about making choices. Not held by a psychologist, politician, economist or social paedagogue but by a mathematician. One of the few things I remember is that there is no fair way of making a choice unless very limited boundary conditions are met, which usually isn't the case in the real world. Draw your own conclusion

[Staga]

I'm pretty sure some shrinks playing AH are having fun reading this thread

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

Originally posted by Boroda
"You're guilty just becase I'm hungry."

Remembering that Powell was against US participation in Gulf war I wonder what happened that made a wise person take part in this stupid circus.

Well... Boroda is right about one thing- Powell was against military action in Kuwait. He wanted to give the resolutions more time and see if it couldn't be solved diplomatically.

I saw it not too long ago on WETA.
-SW

[poopster]

WOW YOU GUYS SURE CAN TALK

And after reading this whole thread I've learned..

WOW YOU GUYS SURE CAN TALK

[Toad]

Originally posted by Boroda

About Katyn': for the 25th time I say that I DON'T f#$king know,

You may be one of the very few people left that don't.

Memorandum on NKVD letterhead from L. Beria to "Comrade Stalin" proposing to execute captured Polish officers, soldiers, and other prisoners by shooting. Stalin's handwritten signature appears on top, followed by signatures of Politburo members K. Voroshilov, V. Molotov, and A. Mikoyan. Signatures in left margin are M. Kalinin and L. Kaganovich, both favoring execution.




Human Rights Monitor

In 1943 the Germans exhumed around 4000 corpses, and made it public as irrefutable proof of Soviet barbarity. In 1944 Soviet authorities exhumed the bodies again and thereafter steadfastly maintained that the Germans had in fact committed the crime. Not until the fall of the Soviet Union did the new leaders of Russia acknowledge that in 1940 their government had ordered the murder of 27,000 Polish officers.[/color]

 
Stalin's Killing Field

...During April-May 1940, the Polish prisoners were moved from their internment camps and taken to three execution sites. The place most identified with the Soviet atrocity is Katyn Forest, located 12 miles west of Smolensk, Russia. For years historians assumed that the grounds of an NKVD rest and recreation facility were both an execution and burial site for nearly a fifth of the unfortunate Poles who found themselves in Soviet captivity. Post-Cold War revelations, however, suggest that the victims were shot in the basement of the NKVD headquarters in Smolensk and at an abattoir in the same city, although some may have been executed at a site in the forest itself. In any event, the Katyn Forest is--and will probably long remain--the main symbol of the atrocity, even if it was not the actual killing field...

...Professor Stanislaw Swianiewicz was the sole survivor of Katyn. He was waiting to board a bus to the forest area when an NKVD colonel arrived and pulled him out of line. Swianiewicz was an internationally recognized expert on forced labor in Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany, who had been born in Poland when it was still part of the Russian empire, and had studied in Moscow. He ended up in Siberia, and after the war emigrated to the United States, where he taught economics at the University of Notre Dame. At least one CIA analyst remembers the professor from his days in South Bend.

Those who died at Katyn included an admiral, two generals, 24 colonels, 79 lieutenant colonels, 258 majors, 654 captains, 17 naval captains, 3,420 NCOs, seven chaplains, three landowners, a prince, 43 officials, 85 privates, and 131 refugees. Also among the dead were 20 university professors; 300 physicians; several hundred lawyers, engineers, and teachers; and more than 100 writers and journalists as well as about 200 pilots.  It was their social status that landed them in front of NKVD execution squads. Most of the victims were reservists who had been mobilized when Germany invaded. In all, the NKVD eliminated almost half the Polish officer corps--part of Stalin's long-range effort to prevent the resurgence of an independent Poland....

...The next major discovery turned up in an unexpected place--the National Archives in College Park, Maryland. While conducting research on Katyn at the Archives in spring 1990, a Polish-American art and antiques expert named Waclaw Godziemba-Maliszewski was given a copy of an article entitled "The Katyn Enigma: New Evidence in a 40-Year Riddle" that had appeared in the Spring 1981 issue of Studies in Intelligence. It was written by CIA officer and NPIC analyst Robert G. Poirier, who used imagery from Luftwaffe aerial photoreconnaissance during World War II to uncover evidence of the original crime and a Soviet coverup during 1943-1944. 16 The imagery, selected from 17 sorties flown between 1941 and 1944 and spanning a period before, during, and after the German occupation of the Smolensk area, was important evidence. Among other things, it showed that the area where the mass graves were located had not been altered during the German occupation and that the same area displayed physical changes that predated the Germans' arrival. It also captured the NKVD on film bulldozing some of the Polish graves and removing bodies. Poirier speculated that the corpses had been removed and reburied at another site. [/color]

Largest of seven mass graves. Five layers of 500 murdered Polish officers buried here by the Soviets.

At the National Archives, Godziemba-Maliszewski located the same imagery that Poirier had used. He also found additional shots of Katyn and the other two execution sites at Mednoye and near Kharkov. He discovered much additional imagery, new collateral evidence, and eyewitness testimony, resulting in important new conclusions about what actually happened at Katyn.

After completing further research, in January 1991 Godziemba-Maliszewski turned over copies of the imagery and Poirier's article to scientists at the Jagiellonian University in Cracow. They in turn passed the information to the Polish Ministry of Justice. The Ministry had to be convinced that the article and photographic evidence were bona fide and that Godziemba-Maliszewski was not, as some suspected, a CIA agent! Stefan Sniezko, Poland's deputy general prosecutor, then gave an interview to the German newspaper Tagesspiegel [Daily Mirror], published on 12 May 1991. This was the first public disclosure of the Luftwaffe imagery and its utility for identifying burial sites in the USSR.

The disclosure had an immediate impact in Germany, where media interest in Katyn had been running high since the 1980s, and in the USSR as well. Armed with this "smoking gun," a Polish prosecutor assigned to investigate Soviet crimes flew to Kharkov (now Kharkiv), where the Ukrainian KGB, under watchful Russian eyes, assisted in identifying a series of sites, including Piatikhatki, where prisoners from the Starobelsk camp had been executed. Ironically, for a second time the German military had provided evidence, albeit unwittingly, of Soviet complicity in the massacre.[/color]

The new evidence put additional pressure on the Soviet Union and later the Russian Federation to reveal the full truth. In 1992, Moscow suddenly "discovered" the original 1940 execution ordered signed by Stalin and five other Politburo members-- in Gorbachev's private archive. 17 Gorbachev almost certainly had read it in 1989, if not earlier. 18 In October 1992, Russian President Boris Yeltsin presented a copy of the order along with 41 other documents to the new Polish president, former Solidarity leader Lech Walesa.[/color] In doing so, he made a point of chiding his arch enemy Gorbachev, with whom he was locked in a bitter domestic political battle. During a 1993 visit to Warsaw's military cemetery, Yeltsin knelt before a Polish priest and kissed the ribbon of a wreath he had placed at the foot of the Katyn cross. 19 In a joint statement with Walesa, he pledged to punish those still alive who had taken part in the massacre and make reparations--a promise that has not been kept. Meanwhile, Soviet and Polish teams were permitted to excavate at Katyn and the other two sites, on a selective basis, where Polish prisoners had been executed. In 1994, a Soviet historian published a book that for the first time called Katyn a "crime against humanity." 20

 

Continued...........

[Toad]

....No one knows for certain what prompted the new charge, but it may have been a preemptive reaction to more revelations about Katyn and new evidence of Soviet crimes in Poland.In 1997, a Russian and a Polish archivist collaborated on a compendium of documents entitled Katyn: Prisoners of an Undeclared War. 27 Then, in 1998, a Russian-Polish research team issued a series of previously classified secret police reports with the title Eyes Only for J.V. Stalin: NKVD Reports from Poland, 1944-1946. The reports detailed a second wave of terror unleashed during the postwar occupation, showing that the crimes committed during 1939-1941 were not an aberration but part of a single imperial design.[/color] Soon thereafter, a group of Polish members of parliament spent 10 days in Russia, trying unsuccessfully to obtain an official acknowledgment that the Soviet Government had engaged in genocide. In the meantime, more graves filled with Polish corpses were found near Tavda and Tomsk, east of the Urals. [/u][/color]




Russians cannot look at Katyn without seeing themselves in the mirror of their own history. Thus official Moscow resists using the "g" word (genocide) to describe the atrocity. When Gorbachev's advisers warned him in 1989 that Poland's demand for the truth contained a "subtext . . . . that the Soviet Union is no better--and perhaps even worse--than Nazi Germany" and that the Soviet Union was "no less responsible" for the outbreak of World War II and the 1939 defeat of the Polish Army, they were also thinking of undercurrents in their own country. 28 Russian intellectuals were already beginning to equate Communism with fascism and Stalin with Hitler. Reports of vandalized war memorials and looted battlefield cemeteries underscored growing popular disillusionment with the cult of triumphalism built around Stalin and the USSR's victory over Nazi Germany. 29 Now some Russian revisionists go so far as to claim that Hitler's invasion launched a preventive war aimed at forestalling Stalin's plan to strike Germany first--a view that even Western historians reject. 30 ....

Katyn: An Interpretation of Aerial Photographs


God's Eye: Aerial Photography and the Katyn Forest Massacre by Frank Fox, Professor of History

...Not until the fall of the Soviet Union did the new leaders of Russia acknowledge that in 1940 their government had ordered the murder of 27,000 Polish officers. For the grieving Polish nation that knew this truth for half a century there was the unfinished task of finding the burial places...

....God's Eye describes the painstaking and unheralded work of a young Polish-American photo-interpreter, Waclaw Godziemba-Maliszewski, who was instrumental in the effort to locate the remains of the brave soldiers. It began when he came across a hoard of German aerial photographs at the National Archives and began to unravel one of the most closely guarded secrets of the Russian intelligence services -- the burial sites of the Polish officers. For the past ten years he has been supplying the Polish authorities with information that has enabled it, in spite of opposition and interference from the Russian side, to locate many of the remains....

As I said... you must be one of the last that continues to deny the obvious truth.

[Creamo]

Cliff notes please Beetoadle.

[funkedup]

Originally posted by Creamo
Cliff notes please Beetoadle.

Allow me...

DA ROOSKIES DUNNIT

[Toad]

Cliff's notes are in Blue.. just for you.

And Boroda too.

Should have a nice denial here by this time tomorrow.

[Creamo]

I ignore any posts that go to hoopty colors.

[Toad]

Well, guess you'll just have to ignore this one then.

Don't worry, Boroda will provide entertainment later for you.

[Creamo]

No, I read that. I just wont read the thread. Im sure it's riveting.

[Toad]

More for Boroda:

Lots of photos and explanations here.

Uncovering the Past

In the months following the Soviet invasion there were widespread arrests, deportations, and executions. The first victims were associated with the defeated Polish government and army. More than a million Poles were rounded up and sent to labor camps in Siberia. Only a small percentage survived. Katyn was just one episode in this tragedy. ...

....Snapshots, military commendations, medals, and personal effects found on the victims at Katyn. The dates cited in personal diaries and letters helped Red Cross investigators determine when the massacre occurred.

Funny how all the diaries end about the same time, isn't it?

[Toad]

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Toad

Damn.

It's a well-known fake. If you can read Russian, please read "Katyn Detective" by Yuri Mukhin.

http://homebooks.by.ru/politics/KATYN.RAR

It's full of neo-communist roadkill about "corrupt bourjeous Poland" etc, but if you'll look at the facts he gives there - you'll find out maaany interesting things.

This "resolution" means that Kalinin and Kaganovich signed "Pro" ("Za"), and others signed "against".

You have to understand Russian just a little to see it. Basic knowledge of Cyrillics is enough. Believe me, it's easy to remember 33 letters that are used in Russian and Bulgarian.

If other "documents" you have are of the same quality - then I pity you. So far you quote nazi "researchers", and completely miss Burdenko's commision report provided to Nuremburg international tribunal, and signed by Allied representatives. More to say, some European journalists that took part in nazi "investigation" confessed that they signed the reports only because of direct threats to their families.

Funny to see how this Goebbels's roadkill is so popular in the US.

I can imagine that Stalin had some reasons to execute Polish prisoners, just like Poles did to Red Army POWs in 1920, but I see no reasonable evidence that proves it.