Author Topic: Please tell me why we at War??  (Read 3035 times)

Offline blitz

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1007
Please tell me why we at War??
« Reply #90 on: March 28, 2003, 06:24:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Lets talk facts NOW:
1. Iraq is run by a brutal dictator
2. Iraq has waged war on its neighbours
3. The population of Iraq is roughly 20 Million
4. There are 4 Million Iraqi's living in exile for fear of their lives
5. Iraqs govt has waged war on minorities in Iraq which has included the use of chemical weapons
6. Iraq repeatedly violated UN resolutions it agreed too
7. Iraq was made efforts to hide its illegal weapons programs
8. A popular uprising of south Iraqi's was brutally put down by the Republican Guard
9. the Ansar Al-Islam terrorist orginisations operations in Kurd Iraq and openly wages war with the Kurds to Saddams benefit
10. Ansar Al Islam is tied to Al Qaeda
11. Ansar Al Islam and Al Qaeda operatives are allowed to travel freely through central Iraq to Kurd Iraq
12. Kurdistan claims the Iraqi military supply Ansar Al Islam with weapons and explosives
13. Saddam Hussein pays families of 'martyred' Palestian suicide bombers US$25000.
14. The UN stopped lifted all but the weapons sanctions in 2002, Iraq has had nothing stopping mainstream food and medical supplies coming in.
15. Iraq has sold food supplied by the UN and received in the food for oil program on to other countries at the expense of its people.
16. Saddam Hussein has built 100 new palaces since the last war including some of the most luxurious palaces every seen in the world.
17. Iraq's illegal oil export program is estimated at US$2billion per year
18. The Iraqi's govt blames to food shortage on the UN
19. Iraqs openly celebrated the WTC attack

Now, these are all well known facts. Well documented too.

Too me, taking out Saddam is not just about one war, its sending a signal that these terrorist nations cannot continue to exist in todays world. It'll make other nations think twice about supporting attacks, through whatever means, like 9/11.


Only read the last , Nr, 19

If i recall right 15 of the hijackers were from your bigtime friend Saudi Arabia, remaininig three was from LIBERATED Kuwait.


Regards Blitz




America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous, it's an "Angriffskrieg"


2 Million people was killed in Vietnam, 3 million injured. What for?

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Please tell me why we at War??
« Reply #91 on: March 28, 2003, 06:27:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blitz
We talkin about Saddam + Us support, not about WW2.

Like it or not.: Your government supported evil Saddam even with WMDs as it fits you.


You're a smart guy, so you must deliberately missing the point. Or ignoring it.

Times change. People you support change. Situations change. That doesn't necessarily invalidate the reasons he was supported.

Just like Stalin in WW2. We supported evil Stalin even with the most modern weapons of warfare, food, fuel and lots of other things. Because it WAS the right thing to do.

But you ignore that times, people and situations change right? It's all black and white for you... except that you can't distinguish between good and evil.

Well, except if it's the US. That's always evil, of course. :D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Nash

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11705
      • http://sbm.boomzoom.org/
Please tell me why we at War??
« Reply #92 on: March 28, 2003, 06:28:53 PM »
"What's your point?" - Toad

People are giving reasons for the invasion of Iraq, so it'd be a huge omission to leave out the role of these PNAC folks and the whole Pax Americana business.

I'm not saying that it's *wrong* for those guys to now be in the government, I'm just pointing out that they are indeed there. They were a special interest group who made recommendations - now they make policy. Policy which had nothing to do with 9/11 when it was drafted, and nothing to do with saving the poor Iraqi children now.

It's actually far broader in scope than even WMD, but I grant that WMD to the extent that it poses a threat to the US would be justification in and of itself.

To sum up... You can't examine the reasons why there's troops in Iraq while ignoring the policy and its authors that sent them there.

Yeah... If they don't find WMD they're screwed. How big of a setback that will be, and how costly the repercussions... I wonder. What I don't wonder about is the fantasy that the US/World populations will be saying "Oh well, the Iraqi people are free, I guess it all worked out in the end." The stakes are much too high.

Offline Vulcan

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9886
Please tell me why we at War??
« Reply #93 on: March 28, 2003, 06:35:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blitz
Only read the last , Nr, 19

If i recall right 15 of the hijackers were from your bigtime friend Saudi Arabia, remaininig three was from LIBERATED Kuwait.


Regards Blitz
 


"Only read"? Hmmm, afraid of the trurth.

Sure, and Al Qaeda included members from the US, Australia, and the UK. What does that have to do with these facts?

Are you saying because the Al Qaeda terrorists were from these countries we should serve judgement based on these individuals? Or should be we judge these countries by their overall actions and politics?

By the way Blitz, your sig. My wife is Cambodian, she often wonders why the UN and US never came and stopped her sister and father being executed by the Khmer Rouge. I answer 'oh it was in to be anti-war', and the protestors managed to put the politicians off stopping such genocides.

So my sig to you...
Cambodia - 2.5 million killed what for? Anti-war protestors conscience?

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Please tell me why we at War??
« Reply #94 on: March 28, 2003, 06:36:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
 I'm not saying that it's *wrong* for those guys to now be in the government, I'm just pointing out that they are indeed there. They were a special interest group who made recommendations - now they make policy.
Quote
[/b]

Yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing that happens when "your side" wins an election. A lot of "special interest" groups get rewarded. Doesn't matter whether Reps or Dems win, it's always the same.

So they had a plan and now they're implementing it. How long has SH been in violation of UN/SC resolutions? Ah, longer than PNAC has been in existence.

You see where this leads. I'm sure they see 9/11 as merely confirming their assessment. Absolute proof they are right? You can see that I think?

Unassailable facts remain that have nothing to do with NPAC.

To wit:

There's no way this could have happened without SH ignoring UN/SC resolutions since '91.

There's no way this could have happened without Congress giving its blessing as it did in October 2002.

Now, if you want to show me how NPAC used its Jedi mind control tricks to finesse those two occurances... I'll listen.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Vulcan

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9886
Please tell me why we at War??
« Reply #95 on: March 28, 2003, 06:37:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blitz
I see how these people love you . Basra.


Regards Blitz



This statement will come back to haunt you, now the Iraqi military are firing on their on civilians. Effectly trying to keep them as hostages and human shields.

Offline blitz

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1007
Please tell me why we at War??
« Reply #96 on: March 28, 2003, 06:39:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I don't think the people of Paris took to the streets waving US flags on D-Day +10 either. Paris wasn't liberated until August 25th, IIRC.


You won't know how they truly feel until they can speak and act without fear of the Fedayeen Saddam standing behind them in civilian clothes with a pistol pressed to their spine.

Time will tell.


The brave people of Paris fought for their freedom while mighty German troops were there and they had  a great victory

Could it be Basra people don't trust u after you instigate a rebellion just after first Gulf War and led them all alone for Saddam 's republican guards to slaughter them?

What about " Schweinebucht"desaster in Cuba, you led them all alone too?


Regards Blitz





America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous, it's an "Angriffskrieg"


2 Million people was killed in Vietnam, 3 million injured. What for?

Offline Nash

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11705
      • http://sbm.boomzoom.org/
Please tell me why we at War??
« Reply #97 on: March 28, 2003, 06:52:09 PM »
Right you are Toad... Can't argue with anything you said.

At the same time it doesn't refute anything I said.

All of it... just is.

How very zen. :)

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Please tell me why we at War??
« Reply #98 on: March 28, 2003, 06:55:30 PM »
You're talking about a premature uprising against a withdrawing army that was primarily street fighting at the barricades. You'll note that the Iraqi Fedayeen aren't withdrawing. As yet.

I wouldn't be suprised if they don't trust us. I said at the time that it was a big mistake not to go all the way to Baghdad and remove him in '91. In fact, I think I'm on record as saying "we'll just have to go back later".

Bay of Pigs was unsupported. That is correct. We trained them, armed them, promised them air support and then Kennedy left them without air.

It was wrong. It is a source of shame.

Of course, it also the way revolutions are supposed to occur right? Has to succeed on it's own? Otherwise, the big bully is interfereing, right?

That's what you'd say if we had taken Castro down. That's what you'd say if we had helped the Kurds and Shiites in '91.

You see, that's your position. If the US does it, it's wrong.

If we supported the Kurds in '91, that would have been the "big bully" interfering. If we did not support them, that would be wrong for leaving them alone.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline blitz

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1007
Please tell me why we at War??
« Reply #99 on: March 29, 2003, 04:00:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
You're talking about a premature uprising against a withdrawing army that was primarily street fighting at the barricades. You'll note that the Iraqi Fedayeen aren't withdrawing. As yet.

I wouldn't be suprised if they don't trust us. I said at the time that it was a big mistake not to go all the way to Baghdad and remove him in '91. In fact, I think I'm on record as saying "we'll just have to go back later".

Bay of Pigs was unsupported. That is correct. We trained them, armed them, promised them air support and then Kennedy left them without air.

It was wrong. It is a source of shame.

Of course, it also the way revolutions are supposed to occur right? Has to succeed on it's own? Otherwise, the big bully is interfereing, right?

That's what you'd say if we had taken Castro down. That's what you'd say if we had helped the Kurds and Shiites in '91.

You see, that's your position. If the US does it, it's wrong.

If we supported the Kurds in '91, that would have been the "big bully" interfering. If we did not support them, that would be wrong for leaving them alone.




It's the way US government uses people like trash to reach their goals . Ugly :(


Regards Blitz




America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous, it's an "Angriffskrieg"


2 Million people was killed in Vietnam, 3 million injured. What for?

Offline blitz

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1007
Please tell me why we at War??
« Reply #100 on: March 29, 2003, 04:21:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
You're a smart guy, so you must deliberately missing the point. Or ignoring it.

Times change. People you support change. Situations change. That doesn't necessarily invalidate the reasons he was supported.

Just like Stalin in WW2. We supported evil Stalin even with the most modern weapons of warfare, food, fuel and lots of other things. Because it WAS the right thing to do.

But you ignore that times, people and situations change right? It's all black and white for you... except that you can't distinguish between good and evil.

Well, except if it's the US. That's always evil, of course. :D



We not talking of times that have gone by by 40 years. US goverment supported Saddam long time  BEFORE he engages Iran, THE time he run his Angriffskrieg" with Iran ,using WMDs daily, nearly TO the day he invades Kuwait.

And ALL that years he slaughtered his people and your government had absolutely no problem with it! BECAUSE he was your friend.

US government shouldn't throw stones, it is sitting in the glashouse concerning Saddam Hussein !


Regards Blitz






America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous, it's an "Angriffskrieg"


2 Million people was killed in Vietnam, 3 million injured. What for?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2003, 11:08:24 AM by blitz »

Offline blitz

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1007
Please tell me why we at War??
« Reply #101 on: March 29, 2003, 04:39:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
This statement will come back to haunt you, now the Iraqi military are firing on their on civilians. Effectly trying to keep them as hostages and human shields.


US officials said there are 1000-2000 Saddam military in Basra.

How can they force 2 million schiit people in Basra to love Saddam with the Coalition forces knockin at their door?

They really hate Saddam but looks like patriotism factor kicks in now. Their country is invaded. Foreign Soldiers, 'Ungläubige', are next to their holy places at Kerbala and Nasaria.

Your goverment told the world Iraq people would see US as the liberaters, yet they do not.

US government will win that war but the political price is high :(


Regards Blitz





America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous, it's an "Angriffskrieg"


2 Million people was killed in Vietnam, 3 million injured. What for?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2003, 05:02:30 AM by blitz »

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
Please tell me why we at War??
« Reply #102 on: March 29, 2003, 04:57:50 AM »
By people ... you mean military, right? It's a shame that the U.S. uses it's military. After all ... saber rattling is just as effective, right?

The government of the United States is comprised of representatives of the people. That includes senators, congressmen and the president himself. It exists for the people. It is elected by the people. There has never been a single administration that acted with intent directly against the will of the people of this nation. Administrations and representatives that lose the faith of the people do not get re-elected. If the people feel betrayed ... they can be impeached.

I know all of this must be foreign to you. ;)

Oh .... and your fixation on Vietnam in an ongoing attempt to correlate it to the current conflict in Iraq simply shows the ignorance within your agenda. We here are well aware of our losses there. We are well aware of the way the government handled the situation. Hell ... we were aware then.

And we are aware now. Only it isn't Vietnam. Millions haven't been killed and wounded. The goal is not only clear but attainable. And the world will be a better place for it. Think of it as a blitzkrieg to save instead of conquer. It may be hard for you to make that transition of thought. But try. ;)

Quote
Originally posted by blitz
It's the way US government uses people like trash to reach their goals . Ugly :(

Offline blitz

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1007
Please tell me why we at War??
« Reply #103 on: March 29, 2003, 05:06:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
It may be hard for you to make that transition of thought. But try. ;)


I tried, didn't work :)


Regards Blitz






America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous, it's an "Angriffskrieg"


2 Million people was killed in Vietnam, 3 million injured. What for?

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
Please tell me why we at War??
« Reply #104 on: March 29, 2003, 05:30:28 AM »
Neh .... I don't buy that for a second. ;)