Author Topic: For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)  (Read 10148 times)

Offline DYGCaps

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 149
For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2004, 02:59:42 PM »
I like this proposal...It will make us see more variety.  Also I think it's a bit stupid that flying a 43-44 plane can almost be suicidal hordes of La-7's and N1K's...Also it will cut down on the HO's.  Also I like the idea of being able to fly my A8 competitevly.

Offline g00b

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 760
For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2004, 04:18:14 PM »
I too would like to see this! My only suggestion and it is totally off the hip, would be to use an algorithm with the ENY values to set the perk cost. I would be in favor of perking any ride under 20 ENY. Now of course maybe the ENY values need tweeking but that is a whole 'nother discussion.

g00b out!

Offline GuyNoir

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 174
For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2004, 04:52:50 PM »
As it stands, I hardly ever fly perk planes because of the hoops I have to go through to manage them.  I think your idea would be great, Kweassa, if we had an easier way to keep track of our points.

Usually, I have a few rides that I like to fly, but don't bother with them if they're perked because I don't always have the needed points to buy the plane.  

I think it'd be great if we could see our perk points in the tower before a flight and have plane presets that we could select (say with the keys 1 through 10) in the tower to get flying immediately.

This way, if I'm flying an F4U-1 for an hour and see that I have enough perks for a yak-9u, I can just hit my preset for it with a hotkey and be on my way.  

Otherwise, I'd have to check back in the hanger every time to see my perks and then go through the list to select the perked plane that I want and the customized loadout for that plane, which would be hell with so many perked planes from your idea.

There's a lot to be said for being able to hop back in to battle with the plane that you want without having to fool around in the hangar queuing up a new ride that you just got  the perks for--especially if all of these new planes are going to have low perk costs that we'll constantly gain and lose the ablitity to purchase.

Most people like to jump back into battle immediately with the plane that they've been flying since they logged on and if we have this new system of a ton of perked planes, then we need an easier way to fly those planes.

Offline JustJim

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 399
For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2004, 05:04:37 PM »
I say leave the Main Arena alone thats what it is a MAIN ARENA general flight grab a plane and either see how many you can kill or see how many times you can avoid being killed by uber pilots.

Equalling out planesets be it early war, axis vs allied is already availible in the TOD do the perk mods there this game is about choice IMO

Not everyone who plays this game can fly as good as some in here hell most of the planes you want to perk even at a little value are the only ones some can handle.

You already see the big Come Kill Me  sign now when a perked plane flies into any area, all perking more planes will do from what I have seen is bring the percentage of 20 people chasing 1 poor schmuck all around the areana to kill him.

I never fly perk planes for that reason alone, plus I suck in general anyhow :lol

Offline BlckMgk

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 716
For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2004, 01:34:18 AM »
Seems like a good idea but, this will never stop people from crying.

This idea is to make the MA a mid war arena, by shooting for a mid war arena, it even gives the early warbirds a chance to play.

A new "dweeb" plane will emerge.... but oh well..

None the less... I like this idea, and hope its considered.

-BM

Offline jodgi

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 696
      • http://forum.mercair.net
For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #95 on: January 10, 2004, 03:36:24 AM »
I'm all for an arena with more variation, both more early/mid-war planes AND hi performance perk planes.

I've lost track of all the thoughts on this thread so I'll just offer my simple observation.

I already fly early/mid-war planes for my own reasons that have nothing to do with earning perks. I almost never fly perk rides, mainly because of the kill-me-neon-sign effect. I would up the spit14 and F4U-4 more if the icon was "unperked". I think we would have some fun fights if we're not sure if we face a spitV/spit14 or F4U-1/F4U-4 before the merge.

I think the idea to increase perk earning capability of lesser planes (and possibly with lowered perk cost for hi perf. planes) would work.

I agree with those that state that we need a system that encourages rather than limits.

It's very risky to perk the spit9 and P51D. But I want the lala perked to a place where the buses don't go :p Ooooh and the niki too...

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #96 on: January 10, 2004, 04:46:03 AM »
Boozer:

Quote
I agree with the naysayers, all this idea would do is remove the chance to fly half the planeset unless you can maintain over a 2:1 k/d.

 Given that a majority of players struggle to get a 1:1 k/d, I see a lot of folks giving up for being unable to compete with the core of veteran players that can always fly anything they want against their poor Spitfire (even high perk planes are reduced in this plan for benefit of us vets and tends to make the whole plan look like a vet agenda).


 That is true only when we can say that the mediocre pilots are facing equal numbers of veterans as they are, in the current MA.

 However, as you yourself described, "the majority" are people who struggle to get a 1:1 k/d. These people, who consistitute the majority of the MA population, are typically in combat against each other by all odds.

 If there were so many veterans in the arena that the people will actually feel that they are unable to compete in anything when the suggested NPA is in action, then we wouldn't be able to call those people who are struggling to get a K/D ratio of 1, a "majority". The existence of "veterans", or people who virtually have no worries of accumulating perks for flying what they want, are negligible in this aspect.

 Also, it must not be automatically assumed that having easier access to (very lightly) perked planes will mean that the vets will always fly those planes. The mindset of the vet is not the same as the mindest of the rookie.


Quote
Someone do the actual math for proof, but only getting only 2 kills landed for each death in a late war plane (say 2-2.5 perks earned for 3-5 perks cost) will drain the perk pool of the average players. It's not just the brand new guy that suffers, but most average guys too. But the system is painless for 4:1 k/d vets.


 Again, you are assuming that the "average" will always face a "vet" in a typical engagement at equal numbers, which is absolutely untrue. For every death of an average pilot in a perked plane, we must realize that his death was most likely caused by another "average" pilot. The perks are not drained by the vets - it fluctuates among the average. If people must pay perks for every death your notion might make sense - however, people are in supply of endless number of tools of profit with endless number of lives. They never 'drain'.

 You're way overestimating the influence of "vets" in the MA.




JustJim:

Quote
Not everyone who plays this game can fly as good as some in here hell most of the planes you want to perk even at a little value are the only ones some can handle.


 You should think in a wider aspect. They're the only ones they can handle because they're the only ones they ever fly. If the conditions on what is available changes, then their choice also changes.

Quote
You already see the big Come Kill Me sign now when a perked plane flies into any area, all perking more planes will do from what I have seen is bring the percentage of 20 people chasing 1 poor schmuck all around the areana to kill him.


 People react to the amount of points, not to whether it is perked or not. That is easily proven in the CT.





jodgi:

Quote
I think the idea to increase perk earning capability of lesser planes (and possibly with lowered perk cost for hi perf. planes) would work.


 That might work if the majority of people were interested in perks. However, as it stands, for the average pilot the current perked planes are way out of their reach. They've almost totally given up on them. It is something they'll get to fly as a reward for six months of flying.

 Already in the arena, when you bring up a Spit9 or a N1K2, which is severely popular amongst people, you only get mere 0.4~0.7 points per a single kill. If people were interested in earning perks they wouldn't be flying so many Spit9s or N1K2s, or La-7s in the first place.

Quote
I agree with those that state that we need a system that encourages rather than limits.


 As an ideal, I'd also agree with that.

 However, the reality is different. Overuse of certain planes is like drug use. You can't stop people from buying/selling drugs by encouraging a better life alone. Only a system of strict limitations along with a decent rehabilitation programs and major social reforms, can anyone expect people to take their hands off material for instant pleasure.

 In AH, that's like saying the whole system concerning planesets must be redesigned - ie. like alternatives of the RPS, or AH2:ToD.

 However, it is clear that's not gonna take place in the MA - then should a system of minor limitations not be a better alternative?

Offline Puck

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2980
For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2004, 08:55:42 AM »
One vote for strong opposition.

Perks are there to prevent domination of the arena, and if you look at overall stats the -51D does many things, but dominate isn't one of them.  We're talking about an aircraft with LESS than a 1:1 K/D in the main arena.

P-51D: 0.97 K/D
La-7: 1.06 K/D
P38L: 0.87 K/D
P-47-30: 0.75 K/D

These are NOT dominant aircraft.  The perk system you're proposing doesn't limit the use of monsters, it is an attempt to control how people fly in the main arena.

I see way to much effort to control gameplay, and this looks like yet another.  Gameplay should be up to the player.

Now, if you want more of a purist atmosphere that encourages smart flying, skill, landing your aircraft, and overall cooperation the SEA runs events with these attributes in mind.  The CT is a great place for such things.  The main should be open for everyone.

YMMV.  HTH.  HAND.
//c coad  c coad run  run coad run
main (){char _[]={"S~||(iuv{nkx%K9Y$hzhhd\x0c"},__
,___=1;for(__=___>>___;__<((___<<___<<___<<___<<___
)+(___<<___<<___<<___)-___);__+=___)putchar((_[__
])+(__/((___<<___)+___))-((___&

Offline DYGCaps

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 149
For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2004, 11:37:29 AM »
Puck if your trying to say that the La-7 isn't a dominate plane maybe your a few sandwiches short of a picnic basket...Seriously, the plane is fastest unperked below 10k, it can accelerate away from anything, climbs like a bat out of hell, and on top of that, has 400 cannon rounds.  That is the making of a dominate aircraft, one that can pick and choose how and when it engages and unfortuneatly when it disengages.  The La-7 is a very high performance late war aircraft.

The N1k is also a problem, the fact that is has near helicopter like abilities is crazy!  That and 900 cannon rounds?? Give me a break, I'd like to see a reliable refrence that says N1k's had that much ammo...If there is such a resource, fine, but I won't beleive it until I see it.

Offline Puck

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2980
For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2004, 11:58:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by DYGCaps
Puck if your trying to say that the La-7 isn't a dominate plane maybe your a few sandwiches short of a picnic basket...Seriously, the plane is fastest unperked below 10k, it can accelerate away from anything, climbs like a bat out of hell, and on top of that, has 400 cannon rounds.  That is the making of a dominate aircraft, one that can pick and choose how and when it engages and unfortuneatly when it disengages.  The La-7 is a very high performance late war aircraft.

The N1k is also a problem, the fact that is has near helicopter like abilities is crazy!  That and 900 cannon rounds?? Give me a break, I'd like to see a reliable refrence that says N1k's had that much ammo...If there is such a resource, fine, but I won't beleive it until I see it.


It's dominant in the right hands.  If it were unbeatable the overall K/D wouldn't be barely above 1:1.

People see La7s and N1K2s and suddenly have bowel control problems; it's not the aircraft so much as the person driving it.  I've got a 3:0 K/D against N1K2s and 1:1 against La-7s in a Spitfire Mk 1 on this tour.  Bluntly, I suck, so tell me a real pilot couldn't own either one of those in anything they wish to fly.

So, if HTC were to perk the most common planes in the MA, the ones with the most actual kills, such as the La7, N1K2, P51D, Spit IX, and Typhoon, we'd have a few hundred new pilots with limited ACM skills and equally limited desire to improve them in aircraft they have no chance at all flying.  Where's the fun in that?  At least now they can up one of those late war monsters, kill someone, die, wash rinse repeat.

As I said, limiting these rides is an attempt to limit the kill/die gameplay many people enjoy.  IMO that's the wrong reason for perking an aircraft.
//c coad  c coad run  run coad run
main (){char _[]={"S~||(iuv{nkx%K9Y$hzhhd\x0c"},__
,___=1;for(__=___>>___;__<((___<<___<<___<<___<<___
)+(___<<___<<___<<___)-___);__+=___)putchar((_[__
])+(__/((___<<___)+___))-((___&

Offline JustJim

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 399
For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #100 on: January 10, 2004, 03:05:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Puck
People see La7s and N1K2s and suddenly have bowel control problems;


:rofl that line just caused keeping coffee in the mouth control problems :rofl

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2004, 09:05:15 PM »
Makes sense, Puck.

 However, I refuse to use the K/D ratio as a standard for suggesting variety. K/D ratio merely reflects how an average pilot performs in those planes.

 K/D does not reflect on the amount of kills earned. Typically in these discussions the "kills earned" are usually used as the standard for determining usage.

 And it is the usage of certain planes, which people are complaining and whining about, not how a certain plane performs.

 There is an interesting psychological phenomenon in all of us - I'm sure even you have expereinced such a feeling:

 You are surrounded by 5 planes in a Bf109G-10.

 The funny thing is, it feels a lot different when those 5 planes are all N1K2s and Spitfires, than compared to the instance when those 5 are a C.205, P-51B, Fw190A, Bf109, and a La-7.

 If the ability to dominate were the standard of people feeling contempt towards certain planes, then the first instance would actually be less ghastly than the second - as the chances of escape are much higher.

 However, in reality, it is the opposite: people feel contempt for the former situation, while feel less emotion when meeting the latter situation. We all have experiences in griping about "those Lgay hordes" or "those Niki tards" etc etc.  I don't think anyone can deny it, no matter how individually they are capable of dealing with the SPits, Nikis, P-51Ds or La-7s.

 Why is this?

 The sense of variety, is irrelevant of how a plane performs, or what kind of 'dominant' scores a pilot achieves in a plane. The simple truth is that people just feel tired when they see the same handful of enemies again and again and again.  

 Is this situation any different with the NPA? Maybe, maybe not.

 But if it would not be so different there'd be rarely any harm in trying it - as the NPA specifically mentions beneficial changes in other aspects of MA combat, rather than just fighter to fighter action.

Offline Puck

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2980
For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2004, 10:19:48 PM »
It sounds like you're trying to perk all the late war rides because you are personally tired of seeing so many of them.  Well...me, too, but that's still not enough reason to limit game play.  The MA is a late war battle for a large percentage of the players.  If HTC were to take your perk set completely out of circulation they would just be replaced by a different set of the latest and best performing aircraft in the hanger.

You're trying to treat a symptom.  The fact remains that a good percentage of players just want to barrel through the air in the "best" aircraft available and blast anything that might cross in front of them.  If the Hurricane Mk 1 was the fastest and best armed aircraft in the hanger, you'd see hoards of them and we'd be flying around in fabric covered bi-planes shouting  PERK THE HURRICANE!

I understand your sentiment, but I don't agree with your proposed solution.


...by the way, if you're in a G-10 surrounded by anything you did something incredibly stupid and deserve to die  :D
//c coad  c coad run  run coad run
main (){char _[]={"S~||(iuv{nkx%K9Y$hzhhd\x0c"},__
,___=1;for(__=___>>___;__<((___<<___<<___<<___<<___
)+(___<<___<<___<<___)-___);__+=___)putchar((_[__
])+(__/((___<<___)+___))-((___&

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #103 on: January 11, 2004, 01:20:26 AM »
Quote
It sounds like you're trying to perk all the late war rides because you are personally tired of seeing so many of them.


 Actually, when I thought of the NPA idea, it started out as small measures to reduce the suicidal jabo problem and brutish field porking tactics. It evolved along the lines of "encouraging the use"(like jodgi said, and I agreed) of planes that were suited and greatly respected for its jabo roles, but in reality totally neglected in the MA.

 At that point it became clear that shifting the MA into  mid '43~early '44 environment should provide distinct alternatives to what the MA has become now.


 
Quote
Well...me, too, but that's still not enough reason to limit game play. The MA is a late war battle for a large percentage of the players.


 Is there a mission statement from HTC concerning how and what the MA should be? I think not.

 It is given that the MA, as it is now, is a late-war environment. But there's no reason why it should not change. It is the circumstances of AH1 development that brought such environment to reality - AH started in the first place, with late war craft. The basic system of MA was complete before any mid/early war plane even came into existence in AH. By the time they added in mid war/early war planes, the arena was already formed in the way it is.

 While it is true that the developers may or may not agree to what we give as reasons, that does not mean what we give out for reasons are always untrue or invalid. Your tired of seeing same planes again and again. So am I. So are a lot of other people. If we can say that we have a reasonable consensus amongst ourselves, that qualifies as a good reason as any other.


Quote
If HTC were to take your perk set completely out of circulation they would just be replaced by a different set of the latest and best performing aircraft in the hanger.


 Mid-war planes are free. Late-war planes are perked.

 So, does this mean that people will tend to find the 'next best planes' within the mid-war range, and will it be overused just the same? Perhaps, to an extent. But I think there will be a large difference in the extremity of it all.

 In the current plane set, perked planes are typically perked very heavily, while other late-war planes are free. Currently, if we wish to choose a plane that outperforms the best of the free planes, we must risk a very high price.

 The large perk price and the "kill me" pheromone, largely limits our effective use of perked planes - usually limited to very timid cherry picking. The perked planes, are so rare, that their impact in the arena is negligible. Naturally, the best of the free planes becomes also the best of the planes in arena impact.

 However, imagine my perk agenda in circulation.

 The best of the free planes are the best of the mid-war planes. Will they become so high in arena impact that things will remain exactly the same? Well, if that logic is to be true, we must assume that a perk price of 3 points will totally kill the use of all the lightly perked planes.

 As a mild comparison, please take note on the usage of the C-hog. It is currently perked twice as heavier than the average perk price of my suggestion, and yet its usage is around 2%. For a number of reasons which I have given very early in the discussion, 2%, is the 'average' number I am looking forward to achieving for all planes.

 The Chog, is not an impressive performer compared to the currently free and high-performance free planes like the La-7 or the P-51D or the N1K2. It is perked for 8 points, and it will most definately meet free planes that performs better than itself - but it still sees 2% usage.

 Now, imagine my perk agenda in place. No doubt, the 'best of the free, mid war planes' will boast quite some arena impact. But will they simply fill the place of the "Big Five" in the exact same way? When you can use perked planes for a very very small price, which is significantly better in performance compared to most of the free midwar planes?

 You must understand that perking lightly the late war fighters, was never intended for making them 'rare' at all. You are assuming that with the perks in place, people will all together giveip on all of the late war planes, and then move to the free ones - which, they will take place in, and created the 'next best group' which is exactly a mirror of what was before.

 The perks suggested, is merely a means to diverge some of the pilots away from the "Big Five", and relocate them into the other planes.

 Currently, the "other planes" have no 'merit' which to attract pilots. So, we're creating the merit for them - it's gonna be free. But the currently best planes, won't be shackled away like 262s or Tempests, too - it'll just require a very cheap price.

 If you can't pay the price all the time, than you'll fly free planes some of the time, which will earn you some perks, which will allow you to fly lightly perked planes again very soon.

 Oh yes, some of the best war planes will form a new 'best group', that is no doubt. But this 'best group', won't be as menacing as the 'big five'. They'll be seen often, but so will the perked planes be seen often <- my my, if we see that many planes that often, then could it be that 'variety' has been achieved? I think that's a safe assumption?

 Currently, the "Big Five" each has 10% kills in the arena, while some of the next best planes have around 3%, and the rest somewhere between 0~2%.  I'm looking forward to reducing the Big Five into some 1~2%, and relocating the rest to the mid war planes. That's what I'm counting on - yes, a 'new best group' will form, but this 'best group' does not get 10% usage each.


Quote
You're trying to treat a symptom. The fact remains that a good percentage of players just want to barrel through the air in the "best" aircraft available and blast anything that might cross in front of them.


 That's undeniably true.

 So, touch the heart of that truth, and you get a solution.

 If you want to fly the "best planes"? Then fine, go ahead.

 But you're gonna have to pay some price for it this time. It won't be so expensive that it will discourage you from selecting it - like Temps or Spit14s in the old agenda(which btw, are made greatly cheaper in my NPA) - however, it is a price you must pay nonetheless.

 If the light perks makes you fly 2 sorties in midwar planes out of total 10, that is still enough to considerably reduce the dominant usage of the big five, and shed some light into the late war planes.



Quote
If the Hurricane Mk 1 was the fastest and best armed aircraft in the hanger, you'd see hoards of them and we'd be flying around in fabric covered bi-planes shouting PERK THE HURRICANE!


 True. So in that case we'd perk the Hurricane. Would we not? The Chog wasn't even the "best in everything" as your hypothetical Hurricane would be, but it still became perked.

Offline JustJim

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 399
For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #104 on: January 11, 2004, 03:16:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Is there a mission statement from HTC concerning how and what the MA should be? I think not.



So what is it your trying to do again?