Author Topic: Why I want the Jug in AH  (Read 804 times)

Offline -ammo-

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Why I want the Jug in AH
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2000, 04:22:00 PM »
Hey there are several of the 56th still alive, including Gabreski. As a matter of fact, a friend of mine was fortunate enough to be entertained by them last week and I am fortunated enough to get a signed Photo of one of them. Good to have friends

 
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Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2000, 04:35:00 PM »
Daff, we certainly agree on one thing   the sillyness of the F4U-1C. Personally I don't mind it (think its an easy kill), but it did bring alot of ill will into the arena.

Now, I too care about "historical" as I am intensely interested in Scenarios (My work in Aces High player run "Jokers Low" scenario team in a good indication   ) . And for that I agree the "D" model is better. But Scenario's/Historical Setups are one thing, and our (admittedly) fantasy arena is quite another. I don't see a reason not to include the "N" in an arena thats filled with other planes that weren't historically significant.

My fear is that if a "D" model was produced first, the "N" would most likely never see the light of day, (mostly due to cries of "Uber Bird", even though it is not). But if you do a "N" first for arena play, its highly likely that we would see a "D" for scenario's and other historical events very quickly.

As too the "N"'s climb, you know thats not quite the whole story   It climbs like a "D", due to all that added fuel capacity. Load it pound for pound with fuel similar to a "M" and I expect to see similar climb rates.

Karnak, not true. Both the F4U-1C and the N1K2-J are both primarily 1945 aircraft. The Cannon Corsair first entered combat during the Okinawa campaign (mid 45), while the N1K2 only had 7 prototypes as late as June 1944, and didn't really see appreciable combat until the Phillipines campaign.

And your comparing the P-47N (1,500 produced) to the J7W1 Shinden (2 prototypes),
the Ta152 (48 produced), and the Spit 21 (120 produced)??? Come on... roughly speaking there were as many P-47N's in combat as there were 190D9's (700) and Spit XIV's (957)combined! Two aircraft you have vocally advocated to be included in the game (and I would like to see them as well   ).

Gatt, I never said that the C.205 was an uber plane. I said that it wasn't "representative". If I had to select a "historically representative" Italian aircraft I would be much more likely to choose the C.202 or C.200 which were both built in much larger numbers and participated in more campaigns and more battles. Of the 260 C.205's produced, only 177 were completed before the armistice, the rest being done while the factory was under German control.  But I do agree that the C.205 was the right choice for AH, no arguements there.

All well, enough rambling  

I still want the "N" though, with a followup variant "D".  



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Vermillion
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funked

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Why I want the Jug in AH
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2000, 04:55:00 PM »
Ammo, I'm going to meet Gabby this week at the WarBirds con.    

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-19-2000).]

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2000, 05:29:00 PM »
Vermillion, there were about 1,500 P-47Ns produced, I highly doubt that even a full third of them saw action.  Nearly every Spitfire XIV and Fw190D-9 saw action.

You're of course correct about the numbers of the Spitfire Mk F.21, Ta152 and J7W1 Shiden (of those three, only the Ta152 saw any combat in WWII AFAIK) but they were exclusively built in 1945, as was the P-47N.  The Fw190D-9 entered production and service in 1944, the Spitfire MkXIV entered production in 1943 and full service in 1944, neither are really comparable to the P-47N in timeframe.  Even the N1K2 was in production in mid '44 (Even the 262 and Meteor were in service before it was, both in '44).  Just because a nation had the capability to ramp up massive production doesn't mean that it should get first dibs on aircraft.  If that were the case we'd have nothing but American and Russian aircraft (Well, the Spit, 109 and 190 would still make the cut).

Now I'm no Jug fan, so I don't know what kind of performance the N would have, but the guys here are talking up a storm about it wiping the floor with every other aircraft, and to me that says "use the P-47D".  The "its an uber-plane arena" arguement doesn't cut it with me as we RAF types are fly the Spit IX and the Tiffie which are '42 kites (This doesn't look like its going to change anytime soon).  I'm not very good and almost always get killed before I can even fire a shot (2 BnZing P-51s did that too me on Sunday), the P-47D will still be able to do that to my Spitfire IX (425mph to my 408mph).  I'd hate to see how easy the P-47N (I seem to recall somebody quoting 470mph or 480mph for it in an old thread) would have it in the current arena.

If my numbers are wrong and its about the same as the D, then why not just take the D and avoid crossing the '45 only line?

That's my line of reasoning anyway (If you can call it reasoning.   )

Sisu
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Offline Daff

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« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2000, 06:36:00 PM »
Sisu, the P-47 would never be an uber plane, no matter what model, at least not if the model in WB is any indication  .
 A M or N model, though, would be a more competetive arena plane....if I really wanted uber, I'd say model the XP-47J <G>.

Daff

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Sorrow[S=A]

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Why I want the Jug in AH
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2000, 06:56:00 PM »
Lephturn that "21 20mm" number just sounds WRONG. There was a link to that story a few months ago and I SWEAR it was only 2 20mm hits and over 200 7.65mm holes (I believe they stopped counting after that point).

And looking at the 2 pictures on my hard drive confirms only 2 cannon strikes, clearly seen in the tail of the plane. Right at the tip of the tail you can see a large shredded hole and on the rear stabilizer you can see the jagged marks where a shell detonated inside peeling off the metal.

 Can you double check that rather unbelievable 21 cannon strike figure?

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2000, 07:15:00 PM »
Funked--I know your goin  I would love to go but funds are not there

Its a shame however that I live 40 miles from the WB's Con location and cannot make it. I do plan on driving out to see OVmech and RATNP sometime this week. Will try to meet them at a waffle house or something

Have a good time and dont get in any trouble playin AH;0

 
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Offline SnakeEyes

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« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2000, 07:45:00 PM »
At least 1800 Ns were actually produced... so it's certainly reasonable to expect that 1000 or so were delivered and saw frontline combat.

And that's more than the 700 or so Doras (god knows how many of these were destroyed before they were even delivered to combat operational units), the 950 Spit XIVs, the 450 N1K2s, or the 260 M.C 205Vs.  

The N is a perfectly legitamite Jug variant to model.... y'all need to quit your pissing and moaning.  Hell, I frankly wish that they modeled the M and *gave* you whiners something to moan about!

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Offline Pyro

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« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2000, 10:04:00 PM »
Well the next 2 scheduled planes are the Lanc and Ju 88.  Since we don't get overtime, maybe you guys could make some pledges to Natedog to persuade him to work to midnight and on weekends to get it done without effecting our schedule.  I hear he likes Crown Royal, Kahula, and Absolut, although not all at the same time.  

Or are you not real Jug fans?  Hehe.



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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2000, 11:11:00 PM »
SnakeEyes, many P-47Ns were sent to Europe, but arrived to late to fly a single combat mission.  All of those would count as delivered, but no combat.

You did not actualy address any of my comments, nor were any of them "Whines", they were, rather, opinions.

The reason that I don't want the P-47N in AH is because it would break the "only built in '45" barrier and would introduce a plane capable of doing 460mph in level flight.  How would you like to face that monster in your 408mph '42 Spitfire?

Sisu
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Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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Why I want the Jug in AH
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2000, 11:13:00 PM »
For gabrieski's P47 I sure can do something for Nate. He asks, I may provide.

It's amazing all those things you can find in Florida's swamps.
Dat jugs bro.

Terror flieger since 1941.
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Offline juzz

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« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2000, 12:34:00 AM »
 
Quote
Once you model an M, it's pretty easy to do a D. Do an M in 56th colors, then do a D in Jambock colors.

P-47M - perk, in 56th colours.

P-47D - normal, in Brazilian colours.

Everybody's happy(except those who aren't).

funked

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« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2000, 05:11:00 AM »
Juzz I don't think the M should be perk.  I don't think any production plane that saw combat should be in that category, except for jets.  I'd like the perks to be "what if" planes, or planes that were not in combat before the end of the war.

Offline Daff

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« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2000, 05:11:00 AM »
"Can you double check that rather unbelievable 21 cannon strike figure?"

I can..and I got several pictures of the plane too..and it's confirmed by every single 56th FG book I have.

Daff

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Offline juzz

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« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2000, 08:29:00 AM »
funked, with your idea the arena would end up full of Spit 14, F4U-4, P-47M, Fw 190D-9/Ta 152H etc. Just like WarBirds I believe, until they went with the RPS?