Author Topic: The Shoki would have really been nice.  (Read 2804 times)

Offline Arlo

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The Shoki would have really been nice.
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2003, 08:13:00 PM »
Woe-tan's upset! Oh yeah. F4U in a CT arena again. He get's that way. Nothing to really fret over unless actual active CT CMs take him too seriously. ;)

Offline Puke

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« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2003, 08:56:02 PM »
Quote
The CT is the Combat Theater, not some Historical arena. The cms introduce the "historical" part when they brought in specific maps. But they never held to anything specifically "historic".


Sure it is.  That's why it's Axis v Allies for one thing, because it's historic.  The CT takes specific timeframes and/or battles and allow the historical sides to duke it out.  I've not seen the USN v Germans and that's because it's not historical enough for the CT.  However, my personal preference would be to take a specific timeframe and allow the same planesets on both sides so it's not Axis v Allies.  This also allows for the arena to be "even" and "fair" for both sides yet still allows early-war fans some good fights.  That's just me.  But to say the CT is not historically-based is really stretching things IMO.

Offline Batz

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« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2003, 09:14:22 PM »
Your clueless Puke,

The ct cms make the setups. They can make whatever they want. They have had setups almost like the main. Theres no "rule". The axis allies is product of what the cms decide. Making it allies axis in its self isnt historical.

When I was a ct cm the guy with the next set up outlined his idea for the other cms to read. They gave input but the guy who was up made the descision.

There have been plenty of fantasy ct setups as well.


Tardlo

Upset? nah just pointing out the stupidity of those who claim "historical". Nothing is historical about ah. Any where it comes close to historical it gets tempered by gameplay considerations. This how it should be.

Even you know that. You just think Brady cheats you.

The current setup has it all. But most importantly its very fun. The only thing that may be impacting the overall fun level is the amount of ack (some say it hurts their fps), buts its not all that deadly, and the fact that the allied cvs keep getting parked close to a field and then sunk.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2003, 09:18:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
IJ fighters racking up kills and gritching anyway.


Where are these complaining IJ players?  All I've seen whining wise is Allied players.

Give us the F4U-1C or this isn't fair.  WAAAAAAA!!!!!:( :( :( :(

Give us the P-51D or this isn't fair.  WAAAAAAAA!!!!!:( :( :( :( :(



If I were a CM the first setup I'd run would be a Guadalcanal, 1942 setup as follows:

USA:

A-20G (All land bases)
Boston Mk III (All land bases)
C-47A (All land bases)
F4F-4 Wildcat (All CVs)
F4U-1 (50% of land bases)
P-40E (50% of land bases)
PT-Boat (All fleets)
SBD-5 (All CVs)
TBM-3 (All CVs)

LVT-2 (All fleets)
LVT-4 (All fleets)
PT-Boat (All fleets)

M-3 (All land bases)
M-8 (All land bases)
M-16 (All land bases)
Panzer IV H (All land bases)


Japan:

Special: No CVs

A6M2 (All land bases)
B5N2 (All land bases)
C-47A (All land bases)
D3A1 (All land bases)
Ki-61-I-KAIc (25% of land bases, 5 perk points)

LVT-2 (All fleets)
LVT-4 (All fleets)

M-3 (All land bases)
M-8 (All land bases)
M-16 (All land bases)


I know that is by no means perfectly accurate from a historical stand point, thinks like the Ki-61 and SBD-5 shouldn't be there and the Japanese shouldn't have an US equipment.  Those things are all there as stand ins.

Oh yes, the Panzer IV H should be right out, but I feel that giving the USA the Panzer IV H and the Japanese the M-8 gives some semblance of the historical relationship between US armor and Japanese armor.
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Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2003, 10:46:19 PM »
Man this thread is a revelation for me.

All this time I thought the CT was for Historic scenarios?

I'm still not sure why your using custom maps and limits on available a/c and fields if it is not "historic"?

And if it is not historic why have a seperate arena from the MA?

Karnak,

The name of this thread is "The Shoki would have really been nice".

What allied whining is going on? Who asked for the P-51 or C-Hog?

I asked for the Shoki and I was told I should be asking for the Tony.

I asked why the F4U-1 wasn't in the 1943 senario and I was told it isn't fair. Just imagine how the Japanese felt.

BTW, your senario isn't fair either. You must be whining.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #65 on: June 02, 2003, 12:48:47 AM »
F4UDOA,

I'd be fine with the setup I described.

I don't suspect that I'm typical of that and I also suspect that the "pro-F4U" guys wouldn't be fine with it by the middle of the week, but it would be fine with me.


As to the Japanese and the F4U-1.  No, I doubt very much that they liked it when it appeared.  However, there are a few points in their favor that reduce the performance difference and which do not exist in AH.

1) Most aircraft they encountered were not F4Us.

2) Most group on group fights were one type against one type (A6M vs F4F, Ki-61 vs P-40E, ect).

3) They had better aircraft in the form of things like the A6M3a, D3A2, D4Y1, Ki-61-I-Otsu, ect, ect.

4) US pilots still all to frequently misused their aircraft by consenting to a turn fight.


Points 1, 2 and 3 are the ones that it seems to me that the Allied players in this game seem most determined to ignore/deny.

Both sides are having their better aircraft denied them in the late 1942/early 1943 scenarios.  The Japanese because their aircraft simply do not exist in AH and the Americans because it is completely imbalanced without those missing Japanese aircraft if they get their time frame appropriate aircraft.



The reason that we don't want the Ki-44 that you proposed is because like the D3A1 and B5N2 it would actually weaken the Japanese forces and increase the imbalance.  It would replace the Army fighter we have, armed with two 20mm cannon and two 12.7mm machine guns with a slower fighter armed with two 12.7mm machine guns and two 7.7mm machine guns.

That is why those of use who actually fly the Japanese aircraft are as vehemenent about this are we are.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2003, 12:58:17 AM by Karnak »
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #66 on: June 02, 2003, 01:02:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Where are these complaining IJ players?  All I've seen whining wise is Allied players.

Give us the F4U-1C or this isn't fair.  WAAAAAAA!!!!! :(

Give us the P-51D or this isn't fair.  WAAAAAAAA!!!!! :(
 


:D Relax Karnak .... wasn't talkin bout you. Wotan generally logs on and immediately goes into his. "I'm bored. You're boring. This is boring. Fwy my way. Wun Fowwest wun! Tewl me if you wanna fiwight cawse Iw'll wog if you don't turn fiwight your F4uuuuuu."

Meanwhile there's endless messages in the buffer:

So-n-so lands 8 kills in a Nik2j
Whatsisname lands 6 kills in a Ki-61
Guy lands 4 kills in an A6M5

etc. etc.

The way Wotan goes on and on you'd think he was trying to make others believe Okinawa is an absolute failure and totally unfair to the IJ side. No fun! Waaaaaa!

It was a decent change of pace to see him just putter around and land kills in silence tonight. Almost makes me regret teasin' him about it. ;)

Here, on the boards, we get a couple guys. One feller who would like to see P-51s and another player somewhere in the thread asks about the C-Hog ... and a gajillion responses from IJ players that make a hissy stink that the allied players are a whinin their tokuses off.

Funny as hell, really. :D

Okinawa's fine. IJ players get many kills, Joe! Joe flys favorite rides (with a couple of exceptions but even those players who mentioned them seem to be enjoying themselves just fine). CM ain't "fixin' what ain't broke." So, hey ... looks like this one may be considered pretty much a success by everyone. You agree? :)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2003, 01:16:57 AM by Arlo »

Offline brady

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The Shoki would have really been nice.
« Reply #67 on: June 02, 2003, 01:13:14 AM »
Not to be overly anal, but I am not a CM.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2003, 01:18:11 AM »
Yer tellin' me!

*chuckle*

Ahem ....

sowwy. ;)

:D

Offline Batz

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« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2003, 01:19:40 AM »
Any CT setup is the imagination of the ct cm whos turn is up. These CT cms go out and find guys to make maps specifically for the ct so that that map can be used in there set up. Some maps were originally designed for an event. Some have historical flavors, some dont. But the CT is not an HA. There have been many a ct set up thats pure fantasy. Take Nuttz's Perdona, its a great fun map. Most of the time it was run with most planes enabled. Sometimes it served as an eastern front set up etc. They even ran a Korean set up.

The ct when it first came out had no field capture and was truly a combat arena with limations on radar, icons and the land grab of the main. There was no strat or any of that.

It drew the same numbers as we see now. Only different people flew there. When the Ct was turned over to cms by pyro those originally cms made a thread looking to find out what they can do to increase its appeal. The majority who replied wanted field capture, scoring and most of the main settings. But they wanted an arena that ran a variety of plane match ups. The cms rotated their set ups each week to keep the arena fresh and if some didnt care for BoB it would only be ther a week. This brought in a new group but the older group stopped flying there. So the numbers stayed about the same. High numbers are in the 60s.

Any historical parts of the ct are what a particular cm wants to include in his set up. The cms themselves have different ideas and approaches. When I was a cm I never ran a pac set up because quite frankly they suck. But Sabre Jarbo and Buzzbait and Brady all ran variations of pac set ups so no one missed out. I know buzzbait ran F4us f6fs vrs the lw on the norway map a few times.

The ct cant run strictly historical set ups because the gaps in the planeset dont allow it and if a set up is to out of balance the arena numbers drop off.  They can try to come with good plane match ups on good maps. Some plane match ups on a particular maps suck, some are fine. The current ct set up is lotsa fun. Its the best pac set up I have yet to fly in. This is due to the map and the creativity of the CM. Not because this or that particular plane is enabled. Cms will also make adjustments to keep decent gameplay. Like removing a plane or reassigning airfields so that the best fights occur.

Theres a core of maybe 25 folks who will fly the ct no matter what. The rest are casual folks who fly set ups they like or to try out a new map.

The big draws for the ct is always new maps the rest depends on how balanced the gameplay will be.

As to "fairness" thats a leftist liberal term. "Funness" is better. In this set ups its fun to fight Fm2s, f4us, f6fs in an a6m5. In the slot map its no fun fighting F4u-1s with a6m2s. It doesnt matter how historic it was.

Whats the difference between the ct and the main? Not much any more but in the beginning it was very different. The main difference now is the maps and the plane match ups. You can escape the spit, spit, spit, spit, spit, p51, p51, la7, la7, la7  furball.

BTW the shoki would be nice :p

btw tardlo

I said this ct set up was fun. I said chasing you around in circles is not fun. I cant believe getting 2 kills an hour is fun either but thats your thing. I finally understand your objections to training in Ah2:tod.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2003, 01:24:06 AM by Batz »

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2003, 01:31:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz


Important hidden clues

clue 1

It drew the same numbers as we see now.

looking to find out what they can do to increase its appeal.

the numbers stayed about the same.

clue 2

The current ct set up is lotsa fun.

clue 3

Not because this or that particular plane is enabled. (Or disabled -case in point .... {eg} .... the F4uuuuuuuu.)

clue 4

Theres a core of maybe 25 folks who will fly the ct no matter what. The rest are casual folks who fly set ups they like or to try out a new map.



But ... apparently the loss of players and the failure to draw in much new blood in no way reflects mismanagement of the CT.

Kannitori has managed to put up a pretty good setup. If it isn't mucked around with too much and the experience from it is used as an example for future works .... you may eventually see an upward trend. :)

« Last Edit: June 02, 2003, 01:45:34 AM by Arlo »

Offline brady

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The Shoki would have really been nice.
« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2003, 01:45:48 AM »
On average our Number's are about 50% better than they were when I stated on the CT Staff, we have much better atandance than we did a year ago, then 30 or 40 was alot, now we see 70 or more often.

Offline Batz

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« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2003, 11:23:18 AM »
actually when the ct first was started 50 guys was normal at prime time. After a series of late war pacs on the island map where the us had every plane vrs the a6m5 you saw a decline. They jumped back up when tunisia and the bob maps were brought in. Also the plane choices grew. But there are no more folks flying in the ct now then were when there was no base capture. There are just different people.

I havent seen 70 guys unless the main is down. Last night was 61. But these are highs not averages.

Tardlo this set up has already been tweaked, you just arent paying attention.

The tweaks the ct cms make have never caused numbers to drop.

The set up run on this map will change between ct cms and will change when the new map build comes out.

The high numbers here could be attributed to a new map. After the newness wears off we will see.

You also miss the point that the f4us are limited and when they are in action the cv admiral parks them 5 miles off shore. With no alt they cant run. The dhog gets ignored because its east and is over there where you milkrunners spend your time at 16 17 18 19. No one cares so they dont bother. But when I did go there for a fight it was your typical bore n ZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

The FM2 is a fun plain to fight and there are some real good guys flying the f6f. Its these planes that make it fun. Brady added the fm2 to land bases because it was kinda unfair to the allies to force them to fly the jug because some idiot admiral keeps getting their cvs sunk. So I would say the F4u is the least fun thing in this set up :p

The rest makes up for it though. Theres no question this is the best late war pac yet.

:D

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2003, 12:47:19 PM »
Yeah yeah .. it had some bases added to prevent the odd reset that enabled all planes and some other minor but essential stuff. I've never argued about that, Mr. "Attentive." ;)

What this setup hasn't had, so far, is a panic knee-jerk reaction to an Allied player actually landing as many or more kills as an Axis one yet. There's probably been a few instances of it, even.

Oh .... do you obsess over the F4U in real life as well? Do you have nightmares about it and wake up in a cold sweat then compose yourself and pretend that it was "boredom" that made you wet yourself?

Hehe ....

Yeah yeah ... I know ... it really doesn't matter to you but .... but ..... look, behind you, F4uuuuuuu! :D

Offline Batz

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« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2003, 04:30:19 PM »
I was jointing to the obvious. Take the f4u-d we never see it. Its hdden on the cv on the east side of the island where the milkrunners keep milking 16 17 18.

The f4u-1 gets jacked up as soon as it ups. Infact we see very little f4us compared to the jug f6f and fm2.

Do you dispute this?

Its not like in the slot where 5 or 6 guys would fly 4 sectors to club a6m2s they were otr fighting f4fs.