Just out of curiosity...

[MrCoffee]

>How did matter exist in the first place? How did God exist in
>the first place? What created God? Nothing?

Ok, Im gona try to take a shot at dmf here though it aint a good idea to try this in the main arena. God and matter are two entirely different things or concepts. We dont use math to determine gods existance however we do use math to resolve many of the questions we ask about matter. We are comprised of matter where God is not. God is a supernatural, he is beyond this universe. The belief in god is based on a fundamental princapal called faith. Your ralationship with God is based on your faith as that is the primary handle towards recieving him in your life. Not trying to lecture anybody, just providing some thoughts.

As for my wacky random event thing. Reason why I brought that up is to try to incite into juxtaposition the notion of arbitrary random events in nature and to try to draw a comparison from that to the idea of a big bang or non big bang universe. A short cut in logic if you will. Take a wormhole or a blackhole in space. These phenomena supposedly transends our universe and into another demension or demensions or universe. Meaning its theoretical that something passing through a blackhole might emerge in  another universe by passing through one or more demensions during its path if it survived. Well then another way to look at it is, why did the blackhole even occur, and why when. Was it random in this universe or within the other side? or was it all part of a large and grand chain of events starting at some primary point. Are folds in space random or just part of the predetermined life of the universe?

Interesting article Cyrano.

[CyranoAH]

From what I know (living with a Theoretical Physics Ph.D. means being lectured every now and then in these things), folds in space are part of the initial topology of the universe, so no new wormholes can be created or destroyed. They are part of the map of the universe (space-time-wise, of course).

Daniel

[AWMac]

Originally posted by boxboy28
my point exactly time is only relivent to life forms.

Then why does a "twinkie" have a shelf life and Bud has a "Born on date" huh?  Huh????

[boxboy28]

Originally posted by AWMac
Then why does a "twinkie" have a shelf life and Bud has a "Born on date" huh?  Huh????

Becuase stupid humans need to know when it might taste bad.

[GrimCO]

Originally posted by boxboy28
now that ild like to see/hear sounds interesting.
But where does the matter go ? the 3rd dimension?

and what the hell is "quantum foam theories"?

Hey there Boxboy,

Matter can indeed appear and reappear without cause... In fact, electrons revolving around atomic nuclei frequently totally disappear, and materialize again.

String theory partially explains this, where quantum mechanics can not.

An interesting experiment (I'll have to look for the article) was performed where they were firing electrons at a block of solid lead. Due to the density of the lead block, most of the electrons would not penetrate through to the other side as was expected. A few would make it through, but would arrive at the opposite end at a much slower velocity than they were originally fired. This was also an anticipated result.

What freaked them out was that there were a few electrons which arrived at the other end, and didn't slow down at all. Some in fact, appeared to have exceeded the speed of light which is impossible given the physics of our universe. The only explanation was that these electrons disappeared and rematerialized on the other side of the lead block instantly.

This prediction was made by quantum mechanics but was never physically observed until this experiment was performed. Apparently, it is now quite commonplace to observe this phenomenon in particle accellerators.

Weird stuff, but verified scientifically as being true.

String theory explains this phenomenon as being as ordinary as combing your hair. The electrons pass through dimensions that we are unable to see or observe, and occasionally reappear back in our dimension elsewhere.

They have built a gravitational wave detector called LIGO which just came online last year. They are expecting to detect gravitational waves within two years, which will lend a lot of credence to theories that state extra dimensions exist.

[boxboy28]

Ya grimm i read the link to that articale very interesting read.

now electrons being a charged "particale" meaning it has Mass and therefore is matter correct?
and they're disappearing and speeding up?  lol well im no physacist (nor spelling Bee champ) thats crazy! But it would be cool to see.

my guess is there hitting the lead and transfering the charge to the other side of the lead and knocking an electron off there.    lol  

like i said im no physacist

By the way Grimm you always have good post topics

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
The problem is its only retarded because you don't understand.

[/b]
If you reread that page you'll realize that they dont understand it themselves...hence the "physicists have yet to develop a workable theory that can describe these conditions"-part. ...get it?

Those scientists aren't guessing,

[/b]
Uh..yes they are.

[midnight Target]

Either you are casting out some really smelly bait Steve, or you didn't understand that the scientific explanation breaks down at a certain point (10 to the power of -43 seconds.)

But then lets just look at your point about the airplane crash.

Lets say you have a film of a crash covering the last 1 second. Could you extrapolate the complete plane from that? What about 10 seconds? What if you had film of all but the very beginning of the crash? How much would you know about the plane?  

We have 'film' of the universe going back 10's of billions of years.

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

I read that page, they are using evidence of what is going on in the universe to support their theories.

Theories aren't fact, but they are far closer to anything else we have before us.

Many theories in the past have been made into fact, theory of relativity has been proven.

Those theories are a whole helluva lot more realistic in terms of whats going on in the universe than the jibba jabba in the bible.

They have evidence the universe is expanding, it'll be hundreds/thousands/millions of years before it contracts- if it does.

The theories use scientific evidence to atleast support parts of 'em, while religion requires a whole lot of belief without any supporting evidence.
-SW

[rshubert]

DMF Wrote:

Perhaps, but again we're in this never-ending circular argument. If we concede that the Big Bang must have come from something, and if it's possible that this thing was God, then we must concede that God came from something, and this something came from something, ad infinitum. It's a nice logic exercise, I suppose.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Weeeelllll...I dunno.  God is not something we can understand or measure.  But we can measure the effects, so to speak.  Conclusions are up  to the viewer.

Did God come from "soemthing" or "somewhere"?  I don't know.  Did the original ball of mass and energy of the universe come from somewhere?  I think so, but I can't explain where, and neither can the scientists.

I am a believer.  I am not an understander.  I also think the Big Bang theory makes sense, based on the thought and measurements of some very bright people.  Many of those same bright people believe in God, too, in one of his many forms.  I think the best evidence of God is the wonder of the world around me.  I have a hard time believing that it just "happened".  But I can't prove it.  And neither can you.  And, I don't think logic can be applied to something we can't even describe.

So let's just discuss our individual beliefs with respect for each other.  I am enjoying this discussion because of the varied and intelligent discussion.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Either you are casting out some really smelly bait Steve, or you didn't understand that the scientific explanation breaks down at a certain point (10 to the power of -43 seconds.)

[/b]
LOL are you accusing me of using smelly bait? Mr "evolution is a proven fact"?

[rshubert]

My personal wish is a working design for a warp drive, preferably in time to go to another star before I die.  That'll be the vacation of a lifetime.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
I read that page, they are using evidence of what is going on in the universe to support their theories.

[/b]
Yes, and did you also notice that they posted their strongest "evidence" there?
That the universe expands,
That observations show that 25 percent of the total mass of the universe is helium,
and that there is a presence of cosmic background radiation.

Those are the facts...the rest are theories.

And lets just stay off the theories vs facts -debate  that we went through in the darwin threads.

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

I didn't say they were fully supported by the facts they have, but its better than nothing and makes sense when looking at those facts.

You also missed the whole gravitational pull of mass, the hot and cold black matter, and well- its evident you only read that one page.

If those theories are retarded, hooo boy, how can you subscribe to any religion? Now THAT! stuff is.....
-SW

[NUKE]

Whoa there. infinite chain of events? you seem to be living in a different, linear and deterministic universe to the one I am in.

I was refering to the matter pre BB being somehow put into motion, causing the BB.
Can you not see that an event had to ocurr which put the matter in motion ? Seems pretty basic to me.

It doesn't matter if that event was a random quirk , linear or not, once that event happened, by definition there was a cause for that event and a cause for that cause, going back forever. So really, there can never be a begining, it was always happening and forever in motion.

You can't say there was a begining, because logically there can't be a begining, only eternity. Can you use logic and explain how something can begin without a cause? There is always a cause and therefore never one true begining point.