Author Topic: Finally : First time I p*ssed people off by shooting them down!  (Read 2458 times)

Offline Zanth

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Finally : First time I p*ssed people off by shooting them down!
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2003, 02:06:48 PM »
Anything more than about 3 K over an intended solo enemy is too much alt.  Otherwise you will be too fast, make his evassives easier, and you make suckering him into a rope improbable.  (The guy that chased you for so long would have been an excellent rope candidate, he wanted you too bad)

Nikis are not very fast, so you had lots of options in a 51.  Not at all meaning to say what you did was wrong (afterall it worked for ya), just there were some faster ways to go about it.

Congrats anyway, a good niki is a dead one - 2 dead ones even better :)

Offline T0J0

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« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2003, 02:19:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Awulf
Mucks got the right idea here...

If you have the knowledge there are those of us (and I put myself at the front of the line) who would love to hear what the good/experienced pilots here would do in those given situations.


The sincere ones would offer advice and maybe go to the training arena and help you out...
The insincere ones would just call you names and berate you on the BBS.. Slap em down so to speak "Hint"

Offline Steve

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« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2003, 08:52:18 PM »
Ok Muck, here goes... a bit general for the "step by step" you requested.  I love the pony and do have success in it but of course there are others who have their own ways(and probably do!) and will probably claim I suck, or they are better.. blah blah blah.  Here's me:
Let's assume both niki pilots are reasonabley experienced.
The nikis are at 10k, you are at 15k and all planes are at cruise speed.  A quick check of the skies around you and dar shows you have plenty of time(per your description).  Perfect!!

As someone said... you really don't need all that alt.. why?
Well, if you dive too fast, you'll lose some manueverability plus if you go too low after your attack, you may give your niki friends shot opportunites on the way back up.

So, first things first.  Get them engaged!! Make a pass or two on them so they don't split, break and run in different directions. 99% of the time if you engage one, the other will stick around to "help".

On the first pass or two you will learn tons.  Are they left handed? Right handed?  Oddly, most people tend to break the same way almost every time.  This will be important to note as you will learn.

OK, during the first couple of passes, you're really just gathering info.  Don't dive down too fast, use throttle to keep the pony in her sweet spot. Don't single out a target between the two.  Their actions will tell you who you should be aiming for.(look for the gross mistake, recognize those and you're set)  As you dive in, these first couple runs, take a shot if they give you one that does not require heavy G's to acquire. Make mental notes of their evasive habits.

Ok let's take a paragraph and talk about the rope. Remember, this is my opinion so others may tell you I'm full of crap.  Ok with your 5k alt advantage, you really have way more E than you need.  And, if you zoom so far up that the niks feel they have no chance to get to you, they may break and run. The thing here to do is keep the horded E you need, but don't let the niks know you are banking it.  Steve, how do I do this?  I'm glad you asked! Welcome, my friend, to my world. The answer sounds simple.  It is sooooo effective that I use it every day: spiral climb.
Think of the spiral climb as a spring.  The more it is compressed, the tighter the coils and less vertical it travels.  As the spring is relaxed, the coils aren't so tight but they travel more vertically.  If that spring were to be straightened out, imagine how long (energy!) it would be. Whether loose,  tight, or in a straight line the spring coils are the same length.

Ok, so as you zoom back up, you do so in a spiral over the niks.  Why?  A couple of really good reasons. As you spiral as opposed to going straight up, you stay in close enough contact w/ the niks that you will keep them interested AND if they decide to cut and run, you are so close that you can quickly snap over and run them down. Also, a spiral rope really allows you to look around and make sure your enemy doesn't have help coming. As you spiral back up, take a good look around to keep your SA in order. I like to stay so close that my victims are actually trying for a shot.  Why?  Well, let's say I'm spiralling over your niks at say 800-1200 yards(even less if I am fast). These guys are going to be pulling lead like mad to try for a shot(burning more E than you in the process).  As they pull, tighten your spiral enough to keep in front of their gun solution.  Now you've got slow victims and you can pick your time to roll over and pop them!  
Steve, how do I know when?  Good question!!!  Here is another part of good roping that takes practice. If you wait until your opponent goes nose down you may give him time(it only takes a second or two) to build enough E to perform an evasive.  If your opponent just plain stalls this is not a problem but most pilots will nose down prior to stall.  The trick is, to learn to  nose down into your opponent at the right moment so that if he goes nose down he gives you a sweet canopy shot, if he rolls over you have a nice fat belly shot, and if he feels he is forced to stay nose up, his nose will drop enough that you can rake his canopy/tail section w/out giving him a gun solution.  If you go down too early, no problem.  Nose back up(to avoid the HO), and start over, or, what I like to do for a change up: Nose up, let him think you are repeating rope, instead do a sort of high yoyo and drop right back down on his now helpless plane.

Steve, this is all fine but there are two niks!!!
No problem, in fact I use this to my advantage.(explained later)  Every once in a while, chances are that one of the niks is going to slip off and try to grab to get over you/coalt.  Keep an eye  on them and make a pass at the grabber to force him into an E bleeding evasive.  I call this corralling.  It works, Muck, I love spiralling over 6 or so bad guys, watching for the gross error that signals to me who dies first.

Ok you've made a pass or two and you have noticed that one nik tends to break to the right but his break is a bit lazy and you think if you pull G's, you can snap him.   Up in your spiral, go thru the coil until you've got the  niks in spots under you where you can make a pass on one without giving a gun solution to the other(another advantage over the straight ropes, which tend to clump enemies right on top of each other).  Roll over on your victim.... but cheat a little.  You know that he is probably going to go right....cheat some in that direction, not enough to be obvious, just enough that you will not have to pull lead nearly as hard to get your gun solution.

I hope you are starting to get the picture.

Ok here's another and my favorite.  Up in your spiral, come down on the same guy twice in a row.  If he makes a gross mistake, take the shot.  Not to worry if he doesn't.  Now, after you've made a couple passes, you go back into your spiral.  Line the niks up so that they are close to each other but not exactly in line with you.  Dive back down on the same guy you've been running at. Instead of trying for a gun solution on this guy, switch at the last second to the other nik. You'd be amazed at how often this catches them off guard! Imagine how well this works w/ 4 or 5 guys under you.

Ok, this gererally covers how I'd approach these two bandits, does it help?

There are other things involved I didn't discuss for now(some: flaps, rudder to bleed E and snap, how you can stall a pony over on it's back and the nose will fall down perfectly, even at full throttle.. etc etc) but I hope this is close to what you were looking for. A good start at least.
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Offline jamusta

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Finally : First time I p*ssed people off by shooting them down!
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2003, 09:22:25 PM »
YEAH YEAH what steve said.. although i am not as patient as he. The spiral climb also makes it harded for them to track you IMO. Well it makes it harder for me to track but I suk...

Offline Roscoroo

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« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2003, 10:13:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
You mean open the canopy and flash nudie pics at him?

Fly around in a circle and look like my aileron is broken?

How do you sucker someone?


ROFLMAO......   that was great !!!

Steves tactics here are really good to in explaining the spring/spiral  rope .

But i do fight from the rope/ lower alt position alot...(yea i like her on top )...if you learn to trick them, tease them, "show them nudies" alot of them get over confident and will miss judge how much E they have lost, or blow by to fast and try to reverse to quickly . (alot of times you can fool them into thinking your climbing when actually your gaining "E" ) dont fall for the "rope a dope " climbing the rope only works once in a great while , and only  when they miss judge how much E you actually have.
Roscoroo ,
"Of course at Uncle Teds restaurant , you have the option to shoot them yourself"  Ted Nugent
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Offline Steve

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« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2003, 11:42:41 PM »
Oh, and Muck, I can send you a film, or even spend some time in Da/Ta with ya if you would like to see how I pull off what I'm talking about.  Again, I'm not saying I'm worthy of teaching others, but you asked and I'm willing to show ya what we have discussed.
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Offline Doctorr

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Finally : First time I p*ssed people off by shooting them down!
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2003, 12:36:30 AM »
If u fly AH as if it were a real plane and a real war- u would have done exactly that: fly away ,get some alt and advantage and engage in the most superior position possible.
There's no wrong in dis-engaging when you're in a bad situation.
I wish all AH players ( wish they were pilots ) would play like in real life , then there would almost be no HO's and a lot more ACM's.
Try flying the plane as if it's the only sortie you have available that day , and try to stay alive !
Doc

Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2003, 01:01:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Doctorr
If u fly AH as if it were a real plane and a real war- u would have done exactly that: fly away ,get some alt and advantage and engage in the most superior position possible.
There's no wrong in dis-engaging when you're in a bad situation.
I wish all AH players ( wish they were pilots ) would play like in real life , then there would almost be no HO's and a lot more ACM's.
Try flying the plane as if it's the only sortie you have available that day , and try to stay alive !


Did I actually just read this nonsense?

Here's a hint:  For every actual pilot who would "engage in the most superior position possible," there was by definition someone (a real pilot) who was in a disadvantageous situation.

Here's another clue:  Many aces, especially Luftwaffe aces, were shot down numerous times.  Even Adolf Galland was shot down in a 262 by a P-47.  Why wasn't this ace of aces disengaging and grabbing alt to his advantage?  How could he have possibly allowed a P-47 to engage and critically damage his jet?

Ponder these things.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline hogenbor

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Finally : First time I p*ssed people off by shooting them down!
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2003, 03:58:10 AM »
Ooh, I loooove the discussion raging.

You know what? I fly the FM-2 often and most definitely don't run away in that one (you can't anyway) and like to knife fight Niki's too. If I had been one on one against that first N1K2 I would have fought him, no doubt, even in a P-51.

However, he started with a slight E-advantage, so I felt I had to run a bit to get separation to be able to build E and safely reverse. But he just wouldn't give up! So I extended and climbed a bit to get the advantage, but as we all know, a N1K2 climbs quite well too, so it took some time. By the time I could SAFELY reverse i got my dear old mum on the phone, was AFK for a while and when I returned I was at 17k with the N1K2 almost 6k behind and below me. Then I saw an attacker on radar and went after him. I really wasn't in the mood to risk a HO-ish type of situation with a N1K2 spraying 20mm's at me.

I DO know some ACM and if you ever fought me, you'd know that I can handle the plane set pretty well throughout (just check the stats and the planes I usually fly, nothing impressive but nothing horrible either). But compared to the die hards who have been playing these kind of sims for 10 years and play a lot more and are obviously more talented than I am I can't begin to measure up.

And yes, this was my idea of fun that day. Furballing is by far and away the most fun for me, but this time I only wanted to fight on my terms and deny the enemy every opportunity to get me. It worked.

The argument that real aces were shot down plenty of times does not seem very valid to me. They were of course, when performing their duty, but I'm pretty sure they never INTENDED to get shot down...

And after all, it's just a game...

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2003, 10:43:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by T0J0
The sincere ones would offer advice and maybe go to the training arena and help you out...
The insincere ones would just call you names and berate you on the BBS.. Slap em down so to speak "Hint"


Your absolutly right ... again ... I apologize to Hogenbor !!!

It was more frustration on my part and not insincerity. I spent a fair amout of time the night before his post looking for a fight ... to no avail. If someone thinks that I am a better pilot than they are and they want to go to the DA and work on some things I am more than willing.

Was in the DA last night and fought quite a few rounds with a guy called Cyou ... he was testing a new stick and trying to scrape some "rust" off.

We had a blast fighting head to head and then exchanging disadvantage positions.  

Likewise, if some of the better pilots want to take me to the DA and teach me a few things I am up for that too.

oh yeah ... Cyou is a BK ... looks like another furballer will be back in action soon.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2003, 10:55:10 AM by SlapShot »
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Offline Rutilant

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Finally : First time I p*ssed people off by shooting them down!
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2003, 10:52:42 AM »
Glad you found some fun in the DA last night, Slap. Couldnt funt anything but vulchers, newbies and buffs..

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2003, 10:57:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rutilant
Glad you found some fun in the DA last night, Slap. Couldnt funt anything but vulchers, newbies and buffs..


Yeah ... I was at A1 also ... didn't get vulched but shot down a few newbies. Was glad when Cyou asked to fight !!!
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Offline muckmaw

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« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2003, 12:06:54 PM »
Steve-

You seem to have made the spiral into a science. I swear, reading that post, I thought I was in High school again.

Anyway, it is mucha ppreciated, and another trick I will work on to put in my bag. I've gotten some great tips on Merges in an F6F in another thread.

I managed to put together a 5 kills sortie last night with some of the stuff I learned, and for me, that's a huge accomplishment.

I may take you up on that DA/TA deal. What's your in-game callsign?

Thanks again to all.

Offline Steve

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« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2003, 03:58:17 PM »
Wtg Muck!  A 5 kill sortie in anything is a great run.  :)

Look for me in game some  time. I have found that just about anyone I go to the DA with has something to teach me, so I'll go any time.


My in-game callsign is:   Steve


Good hunting!
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Offline nopoop

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« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2003, 04:49:03 PM »
Muck...is...being...assimilat ed..
nopoop

It's ALL about the fight..