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Author Topic: Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq  (Read 3597 times)

Offline Holden McGroin

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Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2003, 04:46:15 PM »
K2, a lie is different from being misinformed.  If indeed he was misinformed.  Absence of evidence of WMD does not disprove the contention that WMD exist or existed.  It could just as easily be that they haven't been found yet.

You and I do not have enough information to decide which theory is correct.  In a few months we may.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2003, 04:48:21 PM by Holden McGroin »
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Offline k2cok

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Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2003, 05:28:12 PM »
Holden, I guess we disagree on the definition of the word "lie", Bush was told by the US Air Force before the war that the Iraqi UAV's were not WMD delivery systems.  ;)

Toad:

U.S. military analysts say unmanned Iraqi drones not usable as weapons



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(AP) - Huddled over a fleet of abandoned Iraqi drones, U.S. weapons experts in Baghdad came to one conclusion: Despite the Bush administration's public assertions, these unmanned aerial vehicles weren't designed to dispense biological or chemical weapons.

The evidence gathered this summer matched the dissenting views of U.S. air force intelligence analysts who argued before the war with Iraq that the remotely piloted planes were unarmed reconnaissance drones.

In building a case for war, senior officials in the administration of President George W. Bush had said Iraq's drones were intended to deliver unconventional weapons. Secretary of State Colin Powell even raised the alarming prospect that the pilotless aircraft could sneak into the United States to carry out poisonous attacks on American cities.


Personally I'm inclined to believe military experts over a Bush shill. (Kay)
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Offline Toad

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Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2003, 05:33:33 PM »
You must have missed this part.

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Additional work is also focusing on the payloads and intended use for these UAVs. Surveillance and use as decoys are uses mentioned by some of those interviewed. Given Iraq's interest before the Gulf War in attempting to convert a MIG-21 into an unmanned aerial vehicle to carry spray tanks capable of dispensing chemical or biological agents, attention is being paid to whether any of the newer generation of UAVs were intended to have a similar purpose.


I think it's a bit early to be talking absolutes with respect to UAV's. The job's not done their either.

Aside from that, what do you think they could possibly put in the payload of a cruise missile?

Maybe
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any munitions capable of delivering the alleged weapons.



Just maybe? Do ya think? Huh? Possibly?

Could you possibly be a bit premature with this argument line as well as the others?
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Offline Sandman

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Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2003, 05:50:53 PM »
Okay... According to Kay's report, Iraq was in violation of UN Resolution 1441. No big surprise there, but there's nothing in it that sanctions the use of force by the U.S.

I'm sure I'll see the argument that 1441 authorizes such action but first, I'll have to completely forget that the U.S. submitted a draft resolution for the disarmament of Iraq but this was never approved.
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Offline AKIron

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Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2003, 05:58:48 PM »
At least get it right k2cok, the union is still on the left when flown in distress.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2003, 10:01:33 PM by AKIron »
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2003, 06:18:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by k2cok
Holden, I guess we disagree on the definition of the word "lie", Bush was told by the US Air Force before the war that the Iraqi UAV's were not WMD delivery systems.  ;)
 


No disagreement at all, k2.

Lie: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive.

This requires one telling a lie not to be deceived himself.  If one knowingly tells falsehoods, then it is a lie. If one one believes it to be the truth, then no intent exists: therefore it is not a lie.

The 16 words in SOU are still backed up by British intel.

I could convert a Piper tri-pacer into a weapons carrier with a plastic bag and some duct tape in about 10 minutes.  Worrying about Iraqi RPV's is not unreasonable.

You argue that Bush lied because we have not found WMDs.  We could find a stash tomorrow, and your argument would prove baseless.  Your argument on WMD's is based on no WMD's found, therefore your argument is based on nothing.

The information that the public presently posesses is enough to develop a healthy skepticism, but going beyond skeptic thinking to believe you have absolute knowledge which is based on the lack of information is foolish.
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Offline k2cok

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Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2003, 06:21:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
At least get it right k2cok, the union is still on the left when flown in distress.


Only if the wind is blowing from the left, we all know it's currently blowing from the right in the U.S.  :D
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Offline AKIron

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Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2003, 07:14:02 PM »
Your flag isn't flying from a flag pole and in such a static display the union is to the left. You remind me of a kid I went to school with in the late 60's. He wrapped himself in a flag and wore it to school one day. More for attention than any political statement I think.
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Offline Preon1

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Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2003, 07:27:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by k2cok
"Our intelligence sources tell us that he (Saddam) has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production."

The IAEA as well as dozens of leading scientists declared said tubes unsuitable for nuclear weapons production -- months before the war.


As I recall, the administration publicly addressed that one...

hmm
Secretary Powell's Remarks at U.N. Security Council Meeting
yep

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Secretary Powell

I also listened to Dr. ElBaradei's report with great interest. As we all know, in 1991 the IAEA was just days away from determining that Iraq did not have a nuclear program. We soon found out otherwise.

IAEA is now reaching a similar conclusion, but we have to be very cautious. We have to make sure that we do keep the books open, as Dr. ElBaradei said he would. There is dispute about some of these issues and about some of these specific items.

Dr. ElBaradei talked about the aluminum tubes that Iraq has tried to acquire over the years. But we also know that notwithstanding the report today, that there is new information that is available to us and I believe available to the IAEA about a European country where Iraq was found shopping for these kinds of tubes.

And that country has provided information to us, to IAEA that the material properties and manufacturing tolerances required by Iraq are more exact by a factor of 50 percent or more than those usually specified for rocket motor casings. Its experts concluded that the tolerances and specifications Iraq was seeking cannot be justified for unguided rockets. And I'm very pleased that we will keep this issue open.


President Bush uttered no lie here.  Those tubes may not have been specificly for U-235 production.  Notice that the IAEA said that, not the President.  So far, I can't find any administration press release that states that the tubes were meant for Uranium enrichment.  The tubes were still more than ordinary rocket casings and would have been suitable for a guidied rocket carrying an increased payload (such as a nuke).
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Offline k2cok

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Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2003, 07:34:48 PM »
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Your flag isn't flying from a flag pole and in such a static display the union is to the left.


The patch on our soldiers uniforms in Iraq aren't flying from a flag pole either and they are oriented backwards.

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You remind me of a kid I went to school with in the late 60's. He wrapped himself in a flag and wore it to school one day. More for attention than any political statement I think.


Let me guess, you have ESP - or is it just that when reasonable discourse escapes you that you turn personal?

The avatars orientation is for exactly the reason I stated.

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No disagreement at all, k2.

Lie: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive.

This requires one telling a lie not to be deceived himself. If one knowingly tells falsehoods, then it is a lie. If one one believes it to be the truth, then no intent exists: therefore it is not a lie.

The 16 words in SOU are still backed up by British intel.


Holden, since when does the U.S. go to war based on British intelligence?  :p

And let's not forget that Bush was informed prior to the SOTU that the Niger information was based on a forgery.

"Lie: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive."

It's clear Bush lied.
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Offline Udie

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Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2003, 07:39:03 PM »
why bother guys....


Mr. Foot meet Mr. Dead Horse.........
Mr. Foot meet Mr. Dead Horse.........
Mr. Foot meet Mr. Dead Horse.........
Mr. Foot meet Mr. Dead Horse.........
Mr. Foot meet Mr. Dead Horse.........
Mr. Foot meet Mr. Dead Horse.........
Mr. Foot meet Mr. Dead Horse.........
Mr. Foot meet Mr. Dead Horse.........
Mr. Foot meet Mr. Dead Horse.........
Mr. Foot meet Mr. Dead Horse.........
Mr. Foot meet Mr. Dead Horse.........
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2003, 07:49:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by k2cok
And let's not forget that Bush was informed prior to the SOTU that the Niger information was based on a forgery.


Somebody better tell MI-5 (or 6 or whatever it is now), because they continue to say it is sound intel.

That was just a piece if the pie, not the whole picture.  Your assessment of Bush's honesty in this particular case is based on the non-existance of contemporary evidence.

Hmm.... Based on the non-existance......  based on nothing.....  baseless....

Skepticism yes, but you should get more information and not voice a baseless opinion.
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Offline AKIron

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Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2003, 09:26:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by k2cok
Let me guess, you have ESP - or is it just that when reasonable discourse escapes you that you turn personal?


No esp needed to see you are making a political statement with our flag which is an abuse of our national symbol. You're attempting to inflame rather than express true distress. I know this from the nature of your posts. I just chalk it up to either youth or ignorance, or maybe both. Neither is usually a crime but is sometimes sad to see.
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Offline k2cok

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Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2003, 09:35:36 PM »
Funny, the flag flying from the pole in my yard is displayed upside down.

When my neighbors asked about it I told them what it signified-they all agreed with me.

I do not want to be admired by scumbags and liars and wife beaters. I want to be admired by good and decent, intelligent and just people, and in order to achieve this I need to do things that make me despised by their opposites.

So keep on spinning Iron, it's what you do best-welcome to my ignore list.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2003, 09:45:30 PM by k2cok »
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Offline AKIron

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Needs to be said about Bush & Iraq
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2003, 09:54:31 PM »
First time anyone's admitted to putting me on their ignore list. In your case I think I should feel proud.
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