the lazs MA strat idea...

[Tilt]

seems the debate is widening.............

Anti-field pork.

In my view poorly defended fields should suffer consequenses however I would prefer..............

1. Fuel attrition model. Based on capacity not %. Imagine that 125% fuel capacity each field has now is in effect a maximum fuel allowance of 1250 gallons per AC. At 25% thats  250 gallons.

What we would see is that gas gusslers and big bombers are more effected by fuel attrition and that the range of operations from the field is generally reduced. However (generally) most small fighters would still be able to operate on an offensive basis.

2. Fuel porkage model. There should be many more fuel objects than currently seen in std airfields.

3. Hanger attrition model. Either leave it as it is or link it to a field limit such that the field limit is reduced as the hangers are reduced. Field limit could apply to ride type ie Bombers, fighters and GV's

4. Hanger porkage model. More hangers.....particularly GV hangers.

Capture conditions

In my view dropping one batch of troops during a given period is a total misnomer..............

5. Capture conditions.Increase map room hardness to 30  troops allow formations for C47's


Suicide attacks
The cost of suicide jabo attacks or improper use of large bombers is not high enough

6. Perk bomb loadouts. Loadouts containing  bombs over a certain weight should be perked. Points being redeemed with a successfull rtb. Attack planes pay for their bombs from their attack perks and bombers pay for bombs from their perks.

7. Bombs can only be released from F6 at certain angles of attack.

8. Level bombers. Are those that have no attack role, fly in formation and drop only from the F6 view.

From the above 7 & 8 suicide dives and low level combined straffe and drop passes by formations would be disabled.

9. Attack bombers (attackers). Are non formation bombers that may use F6 or not. Hence the A20, Stuka, Il2m3 are attack bombers and non formation Ju88's become attack bombers

10. Attack fighters (attackers). Are any fighter with bombs or rockets or cannon higher than 30mm. Removing the attack and fighter buttons.

9 & 10 ensure that attack and bomber perks are earned to pay for perked bomb and heavy ordinance loads. They also stop players earning fighter perks thru attack type missions.


massive missions

Missions can be fun. Massive missions (20 +) are IMO not fun, they are simply the attack version of milk running an empty field. As often or not the field under attck is given up for lost and not adequately defended. Leaving porkage as the only defence to land grab by massive missions.   If massive missions are to remain then porkage shopuld remain also.

11. Field limit. Inhibit launch when number of allies within a certain range  exceed a figure. In its most crude form this will apply to all allies. In a more sophisticated model it could be broken down into fighters, attackers, bombers and gv's.

12. Field limit attrition. as per 3 above.


strat

I was dissapointed when the depot system was replaced with the strat zone system. In fact the strat zones are a method of managing strat on very large maps. I can see that the depot system would have made server loading on such maps very heavy.

One way to pay some service to Laz's suggestion would be to make the zone master in each zone a very large depot. It would only have defensive capability (manned ground guns ). It would have many town objects and be capturable once all these were destroyed. You could then make all strat zone masters capturable (placing the "super master" adjacent to the HQ with a runway for Me 163's only). The super master could only be captured when all the other zone masters were lost but once a side lost all its strat zones a reset was incurred.


So what does all this do? IMO

It reduces the ability to win by porkage. Fighter jocks can still perform within a strat model. Bombers tend to reduce the capacity and range of opposing bombers or very heavy attack ac.

To capture a field the sky above it must be held by the opposing side. Fields could not be so easily sneaked by a couple of GV's.

However fighters must still take note of bomber activity or lose full attack/defence effectiveness if not the critical zone master.

Suicide raids are made far less effective or the suicide raider eventually less lethal.

Massive missions would be limited to launch from rear fields where the field limit would allow it. Rolling massive missions would be reduced.

Certain critical battles still take place where a mix of all ride types interface to attack or defend zone masters.

[muckmaw]

VEry well thought out post, Tilt.

I would have to re-read it a few times to really appreciate all the thought you put into it.

The one thing I disagree with, though, is the massive mission portion.

I occasionally plan large missions to attack 2 Strat targets at once, normally Fuel or Troop depot and the city which supplies it.

With 7 bomber flights per target and escort, my mission numbers usually go well above 20.

Not all large scale missions are to pork a single base.

Please forgive me if you addressed this issue in your post, as I may have missed it and am in quite a rush at the moment.

[LePaul]

Tilt, Nice ideas.  I was never really for perking a bombload, since buffs can be swatted down with relative ease...its just most opt not to engage them.

Let's talk about bombs for a moment...and the damage they cause.  Can we finally have damage/craters?  Its really amusing to see GVs fly thru a hole your 4000 pound bomb made and there are no penalties for it.  If your wingtip hits a building, you suffer damage...if you collide with an enemy aircraft, damage...I know everyone is afraid some uber buff will plant the runways with 2000 pound bombs...well they did in real life, thus why fighters scrambled from the grass or undamaged runways.

I just think that if all these realism rules..bombsights calibration and stuff, are being applied to bombers, then the same should go to the targets they hit...if they manage to.  

Im not sure perking the bombload will be the cure all for limiting the suicide bomers/jabos.  It'll certainly reduce the amount to noobs doing it, if they have few to no perks.

I like your fuel idea.  xx amount of gallons left...first come, first serve.

I agree with multiple GV hangars.  Once the VH is down, its vulchfest then capture.  GVs are what make many captures more challenging (when they arent hiding in the map room, ugh!).  Much like there are multiple FH and BH hangars, perhaps 2 or 3 VHs?

Nice ideas, Tilt

[muckmaw]

I do not agree on one point, LePaul.

Cratering the runway could be a problem, as flight crews knew the runway was damaged before they attempted a take off.

In this game, there is no way to know if there is a single crater halfway down the runway, just waiting for you to drive your 262 into.

In regard to Tilt's post, is there any need to perk heavy bomber bombs if the other idea of being able to bomb from f6 mode only is in effect? This would eliminate many of the suicide heavys we have now.

If we perk the bombs on Jabo's, that would eliminate, or greatly reduce that side of the equation as well.

[LePaul]

Originally posted by muckmaw
I do not agree on one point, LePaul.

Cratering the runway could be a problem, as flight crews knew the runway was damaged before they attempted a take off.

In this game, there is no way to know if there is a single crater halfway down the runway, just waiting for you to drive your 262 into.
 

Muck, pan around and zoom in the tower view.

Hey its war...lol..if you are upping a 262 at a base with bombers overhead, you're already taking your chances.  And consequences.  I've lost 262s simply by nosing the thing down gently  

[mold]

Originally posted by LePaul
Muck, pan around and zoom in the tower view.

Does that show everything?  Bird's eye view straight down might be better.

Originally posted by LePaul
Hey its war...lol..if you are upping a 262 at a base with bombers overhead, you're already taking your chances.

Well in war, there'd be flight crews too.  I agree with Muck...IRL they don't test the runway by rolling 262s and seeing if they pancake.  They just look at the runway.  Also, there can be craters in the runway with no cons or dots visible in the air.

[muckmaw]

As much as I'd like to crater a runway, it would make it much too easy for a single bomber to take a base out of action.

Without really looking at field maps, 2 bombers could lay a set of perpendicular crater lines to take the entire field (Runways and non-runways alike) out of use.

And to make matters worse, anyone can do this.  You really dont even need to calibrate your bombsight that well to take it out.

I think this would be unfair to alot of gamers, and put too much power in the hands of too few people.

[lazs2]

One thing is apparent from this thread... the furballers would simplify the game while the "strat" sis.. er, guys, would make it more complex and convoluted.

The fluffers fear that anything that stopped them from affecting FIGHTERS is a bad thing... no one would play with them "intercept their missun" if the only effect they could really have was to "win the war"... they fear basically, that no one will play with them if HTC doesn't force em to.
lazs

[LePaul]

Originally posted by lazs2
One thing is apparent from this thread... the furballers would simplify the game while the "strat" sis.. er, guys, would make it more complex and convoluted.

The fluffers fear that anything that stopped them from affecting FIGHTERS is a bad thing... no one would play with them "intercept their missun" if the only effect they could really have was to "win the war"... they fear basically, that no one will play with them if HTC doesn't force em to.
lazs

Hey Lazs, get a grip

You helped kill strategic bombing as it is.  Hooray for you, you got what you wanted.  Remember the Dueling Arena?  Wasnt that something you wanted as well?  Boy, how many pack that arena..

You've had it buff free forever, the "fluffers" you claim to see in the Main are no longer.  You make some suggestions for input and this is the response you make?  

The Main Arena has room for all types.  But in your eyes, only what you deem fit.  Lazs wants strat, but no buffs.  Get real.

[MetaTron]

No lazs, the point is that you see them as seperate entities when in fact they should be working together as a single force.

[lazs2]

lepaul... no... I did not want the dueling arena..  I never asked for it.   many strat players have suggested that I go there tho instead of concerning myself with the MA.   You must be thinking of someone else.

Fluffers...  where did I say I didn't want  em to be allowed in the arena?  granted... they hold no interest for me and I can't imagine what type would enjoy them but... I have never tried to get rid of em... I have asked that they not have such a huge effect on FIGHTERS....  OR DOZENS OF FIGHTERS..  for very little effort on their part.

I have said over and over that if they want to "win the war" and get the HTC war winning prize of the Hawiian vaction.... fine with me..   let em affect the way the war goes.

With my idea... if people really cared about strat they would organize "missuns" and escort on one side and intercept same on the other side.

Those who didn't care could continue to have air combat against other fighters.

where is the unfairness in that?

lazs

[lazs2]

metavoss.... they will either work together or not... my idea offers the opportunity to do so... the rest would be up to the players....  

What I offer is choice... what you advocate is the lack of choice.    I allow the opportunity to play any way you like while you advocate adjusting gameplay so that people are forced to fly in ways that  don't appeal to them.

lazs

[muckmaw]

The whole reason fighters were developed was to intercept and destroy bombers who were attempting to attack ground positions.

Why does it always have to be "Us against them" with you, Lazs?

I'm not out to ruin your game.

Personally, I have enjoyed all aspects of AH, and thats one reason they still have my subscription. If the MA was simply a dueling arena with tourist attractions, I would have ended my subscription after the first year. The game would not hold my attention without some diversity.

Unfortunately, with the MA becoming little more than whaat I described above, I find my time in it diminishing over the last few tours.

If the time comes where greener pastures can be found in another game, I'll end my time with AH. It would seem many who enjoy the same aspects of AH that I do are reaching a point where the game is not enjoyable anymore.

So who knows. If the day comes when all strat players  pull out of AH, you may finally get your MA Fighter only Utopia.

[LePaul]

Lazs

Let's clarify...there's a difference between suicide-jabo-dweebs...and those wacky buff guys who fly 50 minute long sorties, climb to alt and bomb strategic targets.

With the new bombsight, its a real b-i-t-c-h to hit 4 fighter hangars.  And most of the base takeovers Ive seen are mass JABO raids to kill VH, city, supress cons and get goon/m3 into town...fighter hangars intact.  Instead of fighter hangars being down on the front lines, its fuel.  any night, check a front line base and most likely, its 25% fuel.  

You seem to take issue that 3 heavy bombers can, and do, do damage to the targets they aim at.  The sight was made harder, bombs dont detonate unless they are so high in the air, etc etc.  What hit have the fighter guys taken?  Nothing.  Zip, nil, nada.  

I dont understand the fluffer comment, since in your own words, you dont have  problem with buffs for the most part.

The game is a strat game.  You guys complain that buffs have too big an impact, taking down fighter hangars and ruining your fun.  But one cannon equipped/rocket equiped fighter can down all of a bases fuels to 25%.  What next will you fighter guys gets changed to keep your bases, which you opt not to defend, from loosing fighter hangars, fuel and other resources?

The ultimate answer is you put up a defense.  But that requires effort.  And your solutions, so far, are to insist everyone play your way.

[muckmaw]

For the first time in recent memory, we actually attacked a large base with 7 formations of B-17's.

Our mission was actually going to HQ when we learned it was taken out so we decided to attack a local base.

7 B-17's with fighter escort bombed this base and we STILL left 2 Fh's standing. (In other words, if you can't kill ALL the fighter hangars, you mission was pointless...which makes no sense to me)

Bottom line, most guys cannot use the bombsight. Most have not bothered to learn it, and have figured out that it's easier to take a base using jabos in the above mentioned method.

The way bombers are modeled now, they represent almost no threat to an airbase's fighter hangars.