Author Topic: Please, for the love of GOD!  (Read 8206 times)

Offline mars01

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Please, for the love of GOD!
« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2003, 10:57:19 AM »
Ohh BTW

Happy Holidays you potato peeling losers:D

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #61 on: December 24, 2003, 11:16:14 AM »
Much of the discussion in this thread displays a fundamental lack of reasoning skills.

Have I gotten your attention yet?

How many of you guys can honestly say that you have successfully intercepted a heavy P-47 coming in at 20k doing nearly 400 mph level? This gets magnified when the field is recently captured, meaning that virtually everyone is down on the deck either rearming or about to land.

I see the argument posed about flying defensive CAP all the time in these discussions. I wonder how often the vocal advocates of this actually do it themselves? I do it from time to time, but unless there's a steady parade of incoming - it's dreadfully boring. Moreover, it's all but impossible to stop a fast mover intent on suicide if he's up in the stratosphere when he arrives. You must be content with killing these turkeys after the damage is already done, and they know it.

During WWII, forward airfield fuel storage was dispersed around the airfield, usually under camo netting and almost impossible to spot from a fast aircraft even 1,000 feet above the ground. Often, fuel storage was MILES away from the field itself. In AH, we know exactly where the fuel is and it's very easy to spot. The same goes for ordnance too. In the real world fuel and ordnance are ALWAYS stored a safe distance from the field for the obvious reason that explosions are not especially good things to have near aircraft and buildings. Ever try to spot an ammo bunker from the air, when they are usually buried under earth or camo netting? You could circle the place for 20 minutes and not find them. Your only real clues are signs of traffic having moved to and from the bunkers, roadways, tire ruts and so on. I understand why HTC put the fuel and ordnance out in the open, many AH players can't locate their peters in a dark room, much less hidden fuel storage.

I can see it now, a suicide maggot arrives, but can't see the depot from 20k, not even from 10k. Now he has to scout around at low altitude... Better learn how to fight in that airplane junior, because you will have to, not having 500+ mph in the bank any longer.

My solution would be to randomly put four camo'd fuel depots in each sector. Each depot is divided into 5 separate storage areas, each requiring 1k or ordnance to destroy. Fields always have 25% fuel on hand, the depots bring it up to 125%. Each of the individual storage areas provides 5%. To pork base fuel, you have to find them, and then kill them. Requiring 5k of ordnance to kill each bunker complex effectively makes fuel porking an organized mission, assuming they can even find the fuel. Sure, after a few map evolutions, the location of fuel bunkers will be noted, but their being hardened will make them much tougher to pork than it is now. I can see the suicide guys with pencil and paper taking notes on the bunker locations. For a big map, they'll need a binder. No ack at bunker complexes, as this is an impossible to miss marker. I'd set up ordnance and troop barracks the same way, but reduce the hardness to 250 pounds for each area.

This would create 15 independent targets in each sector. Where two fields are in a single sector, both are supplied from the same strats, meaning that two fields are effected by loss of the strats. I would do away with zone fields and triple the number of acks at factories and make a portion of factory acks manned. I'd also like to see 88mm or 90mm manned guns at some airfields. These would fire proximity fuzed rounds like the 5" fleet guns. This gives you a fighting chance to kill the suiciders before they can unload. These guns should be placed in hardened redoubts eliminating the single pass strafe kill of the gun. Require 1k or equivilent to knock them out. These guns should be limited to medium and/or large fields only.

Virtually any map could be modified this way.

I suggest that players check out some of the CT set-ups where fields are greatly hardened. It does make for better air combat when the field is tougher to pork.

To reduce the suicide bombing of CVs by Heavy Bombers, I'd require the use of armor-piercing bombs, and those would be available only to Naval aircraft or dive bombers this includes the Ju-87 and Ju-88 (yes, the Ju-88 was equipped as a dive bomber and was quite effective too) and anti-shipping types like the Mosquito.

I can hear the howling already. Nonetheless, not a single major naval combatant was sunk by heavy bombers while underway during WWII (before anyone points to the Bismarck, it was at anchor).

Last evening, the Knits sent at least 4 formations of B-17s to suicide a Rook CV. I killed 6 of them, but that wasn't enough as each survivor dived their bombers straight into the carrier. Any peawit can do that, and we have no lack of peawits.

I'd also make all 5" turrets man-able. Lastly, I'd like to see those who wish to command CVs actually have to remain within icon range of the CV or else lose control. Absentee captains are a pain in the neck. While they're watching the Simpson's in another room, guys are busting their butts to keep the CV afloat... Or worse, some dork changes the fleet's course without a clue as to what is actually happening at the CV because they are in a tower 10 sectors distant.

There's no doubt that a greater measure of idiot control will go a long way to eliminating much of the behavior that annoys so many players.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: December 24, 2003, 11:33:45 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline lazs2

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Please, for the love of GOD!
« Reply #62 on: December 24, 2003, 11:20:59 AM »
gee... it sounds somehow..... "nicer" when you say it widewing.

lazs

Offline Toad

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« Reply #63 on: December 24, 2003, 11:21:15 AM »
Tirpitz, I think.

Not bad ideas. I'd put camo'd ack batteries at the fuel depots though. Ack can be hidden as well; it's just artwork.

Oh, and make the field fuel 50% min. ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #64 on: December 24, 2003, 11:40:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Tirpitz, I think.

Not bad ideas. I'd put camo'd ack batteries at the fuel depots though. Ack can be hidden as well; it's just artwork.

Oh, and make the field fuel 50% min. ;)


Yes, Tirpitz... So much for a history degree..LOLOLOL.

Ack batteries at the fuel would be ok, but the tracers would
give up the location of the depot. Maybe just manned ack, or no tracers. They would know that they had found the fuel when they teleport back to the tower.. "Now, where was I when I blew up?"

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #65 on: December 24, 2003, 12:00:30 PM »
Just think of Henderson field. Did they ever run out of fuel? they were being straffed and shellled by battle ships and bombed by bettys and fighting off human wave attacks. they ran short of planes but did they ever run low of fuel? Why didnt the japanese hit those glowing fuel tanks arround the padoga?
Because they werent there. Limiting fuel is a strategic objective. The germans and Japanese ran out of fuel not because their fuel tanks at fields where hit but because their fuel infastructure and transportation was hit.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #66 on: December 24, 2003, 12:19:03 PM »
Nah, it's just that the IJN/INA guys were all furballers and wouldn't do the strat stuff.

;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #67 on: December 24, 2003, 01:03:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
How many of you guys can honestly say that you have successfully intercepted a heavy P-47 coming in at 20k doing nearly 400 mph level? This gets magnified when the field is recently captured, meaning that virtually everyone is down on the deck either rearming or about to land.
I can say it and have done it.  I can't claim I'm 100% successfull at catching people, but can say I've never had a plane take down every fuel tank when I was trying to stop him.

PS... I never see the fuel porked right after a capture... it's usually already porked.  I normally see it after the group has moved on.  Though... I've also noticed that most "defenders" chose to do so at 1k chasing the same plane around as it flies lazily through the ack.

Plus, the 20k people are not who are being complained about.  If someone climbs to 20k then suicides, it's another 20 minutes before they can come in at 20k again.
Quote
I see the argument posed about flying defensive CAP all the time in these discussions. I wonder how often the vocal advocates of this actually do it themselves? I do it from time to time, but unless there's a steady parade of incoming - it's dreadfully boring. Moreover, it's all but impossible to stop a fast mover intent on suicide if he's up in the stratosphere when he arrives. You must be content with killing these turkeys after the damage is already done, and they know it.
Here's the catch-22.  "It happens all the time", "It doesn't happen enough", "Something needs to be done", "Someone else needs to do it", "We don't want to change the way people play", "Something needs to be done to change the way people play".

The arguments all change back and forth daily depending on the direction changes.

Here's what I have noticed:  It is easy to stop people from attacking a base.  Especially if there are 3 or 4 people defending it.  If the enemy is readily attacking, there is no lack for targets.  BUT, what usually happens is 3 or 4 climb, and 3 or 4 dive after the first incoming con... then end up at 1k waiting for the next to dive down and bomb something.  The same can be said for people going after bombers.

AH has some of the dumbest pilots flying on the face of the earth.  If you don't believe me, take the following quiz:

The best place to fly defense is:[list=1]
  • Between the base you are defending and the enemy bases.
  • Right over the base you are trying to defend.
Do you see more "defenders" at [list=1]
  • 10k
  • 1k
Do you see more "defenders" rush to...[list=1]
  • Intecept incoming bombers
  • Chase a bomber that just released his bombs.
A "suicide jabo" is someone who....[list=1]
  • Climbs to 20k, takes out all the fuel then flies away.
  • Comes in at 6k, takes out 1 fuel tank if he survives long enough, replanes and comes back trying the same thing.
A plane loaded for jabo...[list=1]
  • Can out-climb a fighter that isn't loaded with ord
  • Cannot outclimb a "light" fighter.
A plane loaded with ord is...[list=1]
  • Slower than normal
  • Faster than normal
Defending a field against one person is easy.  Defending it against a bunch by yourself is more difficult.  Some would have you believe otherwise because it supports the "fields are too easy to pork" ramblings... but the truth is... undefended fields are too easy to pork.
Quote
During WWII, forward airfield fuel storage was dispersed around the airfield, usually under camo netting and almost impossible to spot from a fast aircraft even 1,000 feet above the ground. Often, fuel storage was MILES away from the field itself. In AH, we know exactly where the fuel is and it's very easy to spot. The same goes for ordnance too. In the real world fuel and ordnance are ALWAYS stored a safe distance from the field for the obvious reason that explosions are not especially good things to have near aircraft and buildings. Ever try to spot an ammo bunker from the air, when they are usually buried under earth or camo netting? You could circle the place for 20 minutes and not find them. Your only real clues are signs of traffic having moved to and from the bunkers, roadways, tire ruts and so on. I understand why HTC put the fuel and ordnance out in the open, many AH players can't locate their peters in a dark room, much less hidden fuel storage.
Was WW2 fought exclusively from the air and won in 1 day?

MiniD
« Last Edit: December 24, 2003, 01:05:34 PM by Mini D »

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #68 on: December 24, 2003, 05:21:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
I can say it and have done it.  I can't claim I'm 100% successfull at catching people, but can say I've never had a plane take down every fuel tank when I was trying to stop him.

PS... I never see the fuel porked right after a capture... it's usually already porked.  I normally see it after the group has moved on.  Though... I've also noticed that most "defenders" chose to do so at 1k chasing the same plane around as it flies lazily through the ack.

Plus, the 20k people are not who are being complained about.  If someone climbs to 20k then suicides, it's another 20 minutes before they can come in at 20k again.Here's the catch-22.  "It happens all the time", "It doesn't happen enough", "Something needs to be done", "Someone else needs to do it", "We don't want to change the way people play", "Something needs to be done to change the way people play".

The arguments all change back and forth daily depending on the direction changes.

Here's what I have noticed:  It is easy to stop people from attacking a base.  Especially if there are 3 or 4 people defending it.  If the enemy is readily attacking, there is no lack for targets.  BUT, what usually happens is 3 or 4 climb, and 3 or 4 dive after the first incoming con... then end up at 1k waiting for the next to dive down and bomb something.  The same can be said for people going after bombers.


I've flown enough squad night base raids to know that if I don't want us to be intercepted, we're not intercepted. Especially when we arrive from multiple directions. That and using a few volunteers to draw down any high cover. As you have pointed out, virtually everyone will pursue the first Jabos down to the deck. That's when our main force arrives. However, we are intent on capturing the base and don't kill fuel.

And yes, I have seen fuel porkers arrive within minutes of a capture because they need only check strats to see that the gas was not hit during the capture. Once it becomes obvious that the base is beyond saving, the Tiffies and Mustangs are airborne. This is much worse on the small maps due to the lack of alternative fields.

What is being complained about is the mob of hopeless ninnies who live only to inflict themselves on others in the only manner they can do so. Suicide Jabo runs with no intention of surviving. The vast majority come at altitudes between 15k and 20k, unless the distance is greater than one sector, like it is on Big Isles. In that case, they are usually above 20k. About the time you can determine the size of the force and their target, you have about 5 minutes to get to altitude. That's not enough to stop all of them. So, they dive in on easy to locate targets and wipe out the fuel. After that, they move to another field and repeat the same profile, over and over again. I've made note of some of the CPIDs and checked their stats. Pathetic would be far too superlative a term. Kill to death ratios under 0.1/1 in some cases.

I believe that a certain level of behavior control need be exercized or the entire game will become the domain of unskilled rabble and jerks who feel that their $15 entitles them to inflict themselves on everyone else..... We have a system of laws to prevent exactly that in society. This is merely a microcosm of that society. The problem is that there are no "laws" beyond text monitors. The easiest way to control the behavior is to severely limit its effect.

There is a general belief that there are two major factions in these debates; furballers and strat players. That is incorrect. There is at least an equal number of players who enjoy doing both. I am one of those. However, I side with the furballers in this discussion because they are also entitled to enjoy themselves without a few jerks doing their best to piss in their soup. I don't see the furballers making it tough on the strat players, but I do see some strat players going out of their way to make it hard for the furballers to enjoy their style of game play. That needs to stop by whatever method works.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #69 on: December 24, 2003, 05:57:14 PM »
Now you are exagerating and actually countering the argument.

Organized attacks being successful?  Why is that widewing?  Could it perhaps be... oh... I don't know... that nobody else is organized?

And, quit going to "hordes of suicide jabos" when everyone is complaining about the impact of 1 suicide jabo.  Afterall... why do you need a horde if 1 can do it?

I honestly don't think you have a clue what as to what the lack of organization and skill in the MA accomplishes.  Everytime you say you do, you end up citing an organized attack as an example.

Sorry, but you really don't seem to have any idea what 3/4 of the MA is doing.

MiniD

Offline guttboy

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« Reply #70 on: December 24, 2003, 06:26:08 PM »
Hey Everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!







That is all.........:D

Offline Kegger26

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« Reply #71 on: December 25, 2003, 05:05:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
upping in a fast plane and chasing down your skilless butt to have one fight in an hour is not fun.  Not gonna do it.   I have upped in a tempest and chased down field porkers that were in 51's.... the worst furballer I ever met gave me better fights.   Soon as something faster gets near you guys you're ded.  No wonder you are so facinated with toolshed battling.

So.. you join the country with the most numbers and continue to do the same things you been doing and.... surprise!!  the country with the most numbers continues to win.

it was the bishops a while back and at one time it was the knits that were the consitent "winners"  what is the secret of all this???  THE COUNTRY WITH THE MOST NUMBERS WINS.

I watched your strat rooks yesterday when they had a few less on than knits... they died like flies and were down to about ten less fields than knits even..  Why?   they didn't have the numbers...  And, I believe, they don't know how to fight anymore... in a CV engagement they simply gave up after they had all their fitghters shot down by an equal number of rooks and all got in LOL  pt boats..   you guys have "missuned" yourself right out of any skill.

In short... I am not going to play a boring game of strat to counter your boring game of strat.   you are no fun to counter and not much fun to fight... I continue to advocate more gameplay for furballers.

lazs

 For the record, I have stayed a rook since I left knits after only three weeks into the game. Your a furballer, not a strat player. I am both, you tossed alot of insults my way for someone you have never shot down.... You seem to have alot of pent up anger and frustration for anyone who doesnt not play the game like you do. The game is a WWII simulation, air to air battles did not win the war. Air to ground ops did not win the war.  
you bring nothing to the game play other than just another mindless furballer flying around with no real goal in-mind, other than shooting a plane down. You said you dont care about winning the war. Yet you complain its the country with the most players that wins the war. What gets me, is that you are complaining about somthing you care nothing about...... So are all knits just mindless cry babies, or is it somthing you learn over time.



" upping in a fast plane and chasing down your skilless butt to have one fight in an hour is not fun.  Not gonna do it."

 I am always up for some one on one action in the DA, name a time......
« Last Edit: December 25, 2003, 05:07:42 AM by Kegger26 »

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #72 on: December 25, 2003, 07:41:34 AM »
Widewing ....

You realize that Mini D is the ONLY one that really has all the answers or has a "clue".

Put a couple more posts up like that and he'll eventually indoctrinate you in the "Liars" Club.

Your getting close ...

"Now you are exagerating ..." <----  kinda lieing
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Offline Delirium

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« Reply #73 on: December 25, 2003, 07:56:04 AM »
Even a non-furballer agrees with the lack of difficulty it takes to pork fuel at a base (see below).

And the real target at enemy airfields during WWII were parked aircraft, not fuel, and not personel. Either way, the current lack of fuel tank firmness in AH is neither accurate nor is it condusive to good online play.

As Lev said, if you're looking to diminish the enemy presence to zero, play offline.

 


Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
And, quit going to "hordes of suicide jabos" when everyone is complaining about the impact of 1 suicide jabo.  Afterall... why do you need a horde if 1 can do it?
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #74 on: December 25, 2003, 08:31:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
And, quit going to "hordes of suicide jabos" when everyone is complaining about the impact of 1 suicide jabo.  Afterall... why do you need a horde if 1 can do it?
MiniD


A horde certainly is not necessary. One can do it in two passes at a small field.

However, the "hordes of suicide jabos" may feel the need to make two passes is just an absolutely unreasonable request. So much easier to just dive into your target and explode like a "Palestinian Pilot" Also, the horde attack allows multiple aspects of the strat at a base to be destroyed in near simultaneous death dives.

So the answer to the question is "You don't. However, on any given night you can and will see both approaches, both Solo Porkers and Massed Multiple Palestinian strikes."

Merry Christmas to you all!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!