Author Topic: nightmare for a rook... (Read 6761 times)

SlapShot · « **Reply #90 on:** January 24, 2004, 07:07:54 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Zazen13
Actually Slapshot, I am sure you are a fine Spit5 pilot, but you prove my point, I looked up your last 10 camps, you have never had better than a 2 to 1 k/d ratio, and average just over 1 kill a hop. So, you are actually a fine example of someone who engages, takes out 1 enemy, maybe 2 if you are really having a good hop, then you die. Not exactly a record to go around chest thumping about, and certainly not one that is indicative of any especially intelligent employment of tactics.

The only reason I use the flat turn as an example is because it is what most turn fights devolve into eventually once both the combatants E is expended. Of course in the initial phases when E states are relatively high there are various other ACM's that may be employed. But, provided neither of the combatants die in the initial phases, most turnfights devolve into a full flap merry-go-round at stall speeds on the deck, with both adversaries questing to pull lead for a brief moment for a shot. So, even if you win, you are in an incredibly disadvantageous position if there are any other enemy about, which is almost guarenteed in the MA.

Zazen

The only one I have seen chest thumping is you. You made a broad sweeping statement about those that fly early war turn fighting planes and I am telling you that you are full of it.

Stats ... smats ... What my stats don't show is the fact that if there is gas in the tank and bullets in the wings, I am game. It doesn't matter who it is or how many there are ... if there is a fight to be had then I am there.

Like I said, find me and I will gladly show you how un-intelligent my employment of tactics really are you pompous ass.

Urchin · « **Reply #91 on:** January 24, 2004, 07:10:53 PM »

Beetle... I'm far more outspoken about timid pilots than most of these guys, but I don't fly the Spit. People have a reason to fly somewhat timidly when they are fighting a spit. At least the people in the runstangs and el gays. If they screw up to badly, they are going to die before they can run away.

What I despise about these same people is they fly just as timidly when they are facing any other plane.

SlapShot · « **Reply #92 on:** January 24, 2004, 07:17:16 PM »

Beet ... I have to agree with Nopoop. What a load of BS.

Any plane available in the AH hanger can be flown out of plane that would wreck most men within minutes. We can do things in these planes, with consistency and frequency, that noone has ever been able to accomplish, nevermind survive ... move on.

Hornet · « **Reply #93 on:** January 24, 2004, 07:51:42 PM »

Flying from a disadvantage is the equivalent of acm weight training.

Winning from a disadvantage is the hardest thing to execute. Read Shaw. Its a pretty clear message to the fighter pilot that there is a high probability of flying perfect defensive ACM and still dying.

The subtext here folks is if you are winning at 2-1 or 3-1 clip from a disadvantge when you turn it on in a scenario/special events situation you are damn near unbeatable compared to a "smart flyer" because when everyone is talented it becomes evident who can create their own shot and who cannot. This also applies to the horizontal cherrypickers who love to find furballs. Basically a sky accountant without the alt adv.

So don't think for a second that a Levi or a Drex couldn't put a hurt on you with a D9, a wingman and a 2k alt adv.

No one wants to see that. Least of all HTC.

Those kind of beatdowns lead to cancelled subscriptions.

beet1e · « **Reply #94 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:08:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot
Any plane available in the AH hanger can be flown out of plane that would wreck most men within minutes. We can do things in these planes, with consistency and frequency, that noone has ever been able to accomplish, nevermind survive ... move on.

I agree - but that's total gamey crap. If that's what you want, fine. I'm not saying there's no skill involved. I'm saying that the skill that is involved is Aces High *GAME* skill. Nothing more. You have learned how to ploy the various game features and parameters of the AH game to your advantage, nothing more. The scenarios depicted in these heroic missions are over contrived, and the skills deployed in those scenarios are totally abstract. All I'm saying is that you should not berate some guy who flies smart in a P47/190/whatever and kicks your butt. He's probably on a different mission, a different page of the script. He might be flying alone and testing the performance of his plane and his own skill at handling it. I conducted that experiment in a poor turning, poor climbing P47D25 - and it became my best plane for k/d - 215/47. The fact that I did not descend to weed height, slow to 180mph and then seek out a Spit V to see who could win a turnfight is neither here nor there.

Enjoy what you do! Just don't piss on others when they enjoy what they do, especially whan it does not fit in with what you do.

Nopoop - "500 is 300 on the spittys FE that ruined your week. He prolly suckered you and you bit. That's the best." I'm not convinced. I've had kills like that in the past, and when I checked with the other guy, our distances were about the same. But you're a film buff. Here's a film of me shooting a YAK in my F4U-1D. I delivered all the killer blows from 600+ yards on MY end, and that's BS. I even apologised to the guy afterwards for gaming the game. The film is only 29 secs in length - I think your attention span should hold out.

nopoop · « **Reply #95 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:43:08 PM »

Beet for cripes sakes the guy DIDN'T MOVE !!!!!!!

If you think that 1800 feet with 6 fifties at a non moving target is BS I don't know what to tell you.

Hooligan · « **Reply #96 on:** January 24, 2004, 10:47:01 PM »

From "P51 Mustang Aces" (William N. Hess)

Combat report: On Oct. 12 Yeager led the group enroute to escort bombers striking at targets at Hanover. Over Steinhuder Lake, 22 Me 109's were sighted passing from 11:00 to 1:00. Yeager stated: "I was coming out of the sun and they were about 1.5 miles away at the same level of 28,000 feet. I fell in behind the enemy formation and followed them for about 3 min, climbing to 30,000 feet. I still had my wing tanks and had closed up to around 1,000 yards, coming within firing range and positioning the squadron behind the entire enemy formation. Two of the 109's were lagging over to the right. One slowed up, and before I could start firing, rolled over and bailed out. The other 109 flying his wing, bailed out imeadiatly after I was ready to line him in my sights." "I was closest to the tail-end of the enemy formation and no one but myself was in shooting range and no one was firing. I dropped my tanks and then closed up to the last Jerry and open fire from 600 yards, using my K-14 sight. I observed strikes all over the ship, particularly heavy in the cockpit. He skidded off to the left and was smoking and streaming coolant and went into a slow diving turn to the left. I was closing on another 109, so I did not follow him down. Lt. Stern reports that the enemy aircraft was on fire when it passed him and went into a spin."

Hooligan

Steve · « **Reply #97 on:** January 24, 2004, 11:01:19 PM »

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Do one in the weeds, then you'll have something to say.

I fly some in the weeds when I'm in the mood; it's a blast. The game is what you make of it, why one side views the other with disdain is beyond me. Usually it's a furballer who turns up his nose at other people's styles. i.e Lazs or the tripe Hornet posted. Lazs is entitled to his views and I respect them.
I think it's deliciously ironic however, how vehement some of the replies get when someone who is not a furballer speaks in any tone other than reverence about the weed whackers. Look at Hornet's post, it falls just short of hero worship. Sure Todd and Drex are good sticks. Just as surely as theses two could get in D9's and cherry pick to their hearts' content, I'm sure there are a couple of d9 pilots who could get in turnfighters and meet w/ success.
I think it's great that a game exists that allows for so many choices of game play. I continue to be amused that some people think one style somehow is more noble or requires more skill than another.

As for the Slapshot /Zazen debacle, Zazen I'm not trying to take sides too much but I cringe when people quote K/D and K/S as a measure of skill. Sure it CAN be a measure of one's success in the MA, but not necessarily is it a good example of one's skill. I know Slapshot to be a very competent pilot who simply doesn't care about whether he survives, he wants to get in as many fights per flight as possible, regardless of circumstances. With this in mind, I think you can see why K/D and K/S might not be good indicators of Slap's ability at all.
OTOH I respect that you fly to survive and garner the most pleasure out of landing your crate as much as possible. since the game is literally what we chose it to be, I don't think one side is any more accomplished/better than the other.

Hornet · « **Reply #98 on:** January 24, 2004, 11:23:16 PM »

bah...totally wrong call steve.

both skill sets have value and are effective of that there is no doubt.

1 skill set has a longer shelf life than the other before you are out of practice. So folks looking to round out their game will look to fight from bad spots. Seems like a pretty basic concept.

Steve · « **Reply #99 on:** January 25, 2004, 12:32:28 AM »

Hornet, I stated my opinion. The fact that you think I'm wrong isn't going to change it. If it makes you feel better, disagree w/ me some more. I have my views and they are based on my experiences in both venues, not becuase someone like you came along and tried to give me my opinion.

beet1e · « **Reply #100 on:** January 25, 2004, 05:26:11 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Steve
I fly some in the weeds when I'm in the mood; it's a blast. The game is what you make of it, why one side views the other with disdain is beyond me. Usually it's a furballer who turns up his nose at other people's styles. i.e Lazs or the tripe Hornet posted. Lazs is entitled to his views and I respect them. I think it's deliciously ironic however, how vehement some of the replies get when someone who is not a furballer speaks in any tone other than reverence about the weed whackers. Look at Hornet's post, it falls just short of hero worship. Sure Todd and Drex are good sticks. Just as surely as theses two could get in D9's and cherry pick to their hearts' content, I'm sure there are a couple of d9 pilots who could get in turnfighters and meet w/ success. I think it's great that a game exists that allows for so many choices of game play. I continue to be amused that some people think one style somehow is more noble or requires more skill than another.

Steve - that was a cracking post!

Exactamundo. You nailed it. Now whereas the furballers may have leaned to one side of the debate, I may have appeared to lean to the opposite side. But if I did, I was only trying to create balance. I don't mind if the weed wackers want to fight at 3K, and find action within 2 minutes of taking off. I'm not going to piss on their parade, unless they piss on mine or anyone else's. And it has to be said that this whole thread got started by Lazs, lamenting the fact that a few Rooks he saw would not play the way he wanted them to. It is a game, and so far I think Steve and DMF are seeing the big picture.

Nopoop, that film was part of a 6 kill sortie in which I was down in the weeds below 1K for much of it. The seaweeds that is, as the flight was off a CV. I'd post the entire film, but you'd make fun of my limey accent.

I am no expert in guns/gunnery as you know - lol. Learned a bit last October with Lazs though.

So I asked a friend - former WBer and current AHer - who is also a learned military historian. The context in which I put the question was in relation to a 109G6 egressing from a Spit V and being shot at 500 yards, 600 yards or more. I then pointed out to him that I myself could get kills at 600, 800 and one time even 1000 yards at a 30° upward angle. And this was his reply. I have underlined the bits that stuck out. Please read carefully. The gentleman speaks excellent English, but it's not his first language.

Quote

Yes, the gunnery is way easier both in WB and AH then in real life.

WW2OL is actually a bit closer to reality.

Sims in general do not model most or any of the matters which affect the shooting. Airplanes differed a lot even in gun mounting, which already afffected hwo the bullets start their flight. Weapons never get hot, which worsens the accuracy - thats why in RL pilots shoot short bursts, to allow the guns cool off. Then all the kazillion details about bullets in flight. In real life practical shooting distances were generally 200 meters. There was a reason why pilots were taught to shoot close - that way you could actually hit.

You got to remember as well, that a fleeing target is fast. It runs away from the bullet, which means the longer the range, the longer way bullet must fly. 800 yards shot is not 800 yards for the bullet, it is 1000-1200 yards. At those ranges bullet has lost much of its velocity. When it hits it must pierce the airplane fuselage. Wartime tests showed bullet loses about 70% of its piercing power just on penetrating the plane skin - as it is not 90 degree penetration. After that it has much less chances on piercing critical components or armor.

So yes - 800 meter shots are total bull****.

Have you ever thought about the bullet penetration in games? I am 100% certain that when you shoot at 800 yards, the bullet penetration and kinetic energy is modeled fully, as 100 yards or so shot! The energy of the bullet should be less in longer ranges, but by my arse, they're just as efficient when they strike at 800 yards as in 100 yards and that just isn't correct.

But no can do. It's a game. It makes you mad but gotta live with it, if you want to enjoy flying.

SlapShot · « **Reply #101 on:** January 25, 2004, 08:59:34 AM »

I agree - but that's total gamey crap. If that's what you want, fine. I'm not saying there's no skill involved. I'm saying that the skill that is involved is Aces High *GAME* skill. Nothing more.

Wow ... what a revelation !!! Thanks.

You have learned how to ploy the various game features and parameters of the AH game to your advantage, nothing more.

Just like you have ... does stick stirrin' ring a bell ?

The scenarios depicted in these heroic missions are over contrived, and the skills deployed in those scenarios are totally abstract. All I'm saying is that you should not berate some guy who flies smart in a P47/190/whatever and kicks your butt.

Anybody that kicks my butt in any plane gets a <>. Anybody that rips me apart from their cherry perch after someone else has worked me to the point that the cherry picker gets an effortless kill ... gets silence. You on the other hand must come here and vent your frustration with BS, rhetoric, and anecdotal evidence. Drag all the Historians and AW/WWOL pilots you want ... they mean nothing. You would not have quoted him if he did not agree with your opinion. Ballistics have been debated to death in other forums with ballistics experts ... carries far more weight than what you brought to the table.

My problem is not with those who don't fly the weed wackers ... its with those who wont engage without an overwhelming advanatge or overwhelming odds and then preach that they are superior. Fly with the "JB"s for awhile. They are the gamest LW pilots in the game. They fight !!! ... and have provided some of the best fights I have had in this game ... all in German rides.

The last week or so, I have been flying (solo), and trying to engage 1 v 1 at the 10K+ level and still, without the overwhelming advantage, they fly right on by or turn tail back to where they came from hoping to find the protection of the herd. Because their scared ? Because they might lower their K/D ? Because someone might make fun of them ? Because the have no clue as to how to fight 1 v 1 ? I wish I knew.

nopoop · « **Reply #102 on:** January 25, 2004, 09:29:44 AM »

Steve, good thoughts. Hornets shelf life statement is true also.

My rust starts at 48 hours.

With either advocation, being a good shot is paramount. If I could be implanted with the marksmen "chip" in this wittle head I'd be most appreciative.

Zazen13 · « **Reply #103 on:** January 25, 2004, 10:19:42 AM »

Never did I say someone who gets in a dweebfire and yanks and banks on deck is somehow an inferior person. All I said was, that style of play, while undoubtedly fun for some, is totally unrealistic. But, as some have mentioned many facets of the game are very unrealistic, including some flight models. In reference to the original post, my argument was that flying at appropriate altitude in co-ordination with ones teamates engaging discriminately is very very close to how the air war in WW2 was approached.

Not that one way is intrinsically better than the other. I enjoy both from time to time myself. But, no pilots in WW2 grabbed a dweebfire saying to himself, "Ok, I am fabulous, I'm just gonna dive into that mess over there and wiggle around spraying at everything I can until either my fuel or ammo runs out and I die!"
Well, maybe a few did, but we'll never know, cause they are dead....

I guess what we can agree upon is that different people have different ideas of what a successfull hop is. I get little satisfaction from any hop where I hand the enemy my pelt. It doesn't matter if I kill ten before someone gets my pelt. It wasn't worth it. But, then there's some like Slap, or +Dead, that just want to see how many they can take with them to the grave in their dweebfire of doom. If that's what gets your rocks off, go for it. But, to conclude in reference to the original post. Getting pissy because people choose to employ the tactics and strategy that were actually used with great proven success in WW2 is in a word, stupid.

Zazen

WhiteHawk · « **Reply #104 on:** January 25, 2004, 10:24:27 AM »

Were there any 'furballer' survivors of ww2?