Author Topic: Small Maps – a Creeping Process. Hmmm…  (Read 11969 times)

Offline lazs2

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Small Maps – a Creeping Process. Hmmm…
« Reply #105 on: March 08, 2004, 08:17:56 AM »
beetle... how wrong can you be if metavoss is on your side?

lazs poll question... "Do you like the pizza map?"   5,000 no... 8 yes.

beetle poll question.  " is the pizza map allright with you and would you like me to send you $1,000 a month and be known as a hetrosexual?"   "yes or no only"

15 yes and 2 no.

dredilocks is correct.  the map could easily be fixed in the way he describes.   The more fields/areas that are fixed the better the gameplay and the more choice.

lazs

Offline beet1e

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Small Maps – a Creeping Process. Hmmm…
« Reply #106 on: March 08, 2004, 08:39:56 AM »
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Originally posted by Toad
Excuse me, Beet? No apology for all that career stat vitriol?

A simple "Sorry, I was wrong" will do.


Thank you.
You're welcome. Have a nice day! :)

But no apology from me. You have not apologised for being wrong when you said "the milkrun where you vulched 5?" and "It probably escapes you but YOU are the one that brought your glorious tale of a successful vulch sortie", (one kill at most was a vulch) so I see no reason to take this thread even further off topic by getting into a discussion about stats which goes back to Y2K, and certainly feel no need to apologise to you when you won't apologise to me.

I talked about three P47 sorties. The one for which you want the film, the one in which I got killed because there were high bogies waiting, and the third one which was when my squaddies arrived to find no opposition: They were all down on the deck chasing me by then. They had blown their alt, so couldn't get back into the fight. I guess the blame for that rests squarely with the pizza map. :rolleyes:
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On small maps, you have to fight. All the time. To and from the targets.
Oh yeah? Well I could post film from last week on the small map, showing three F4U sorties off a rook CV, 21 kills, 2 deaths (one death was a ram, one was a GV killshooter death - stray round hit rook LVT). Now YOU are saying that you have to fight. All the time. Would these sorties constitute fighting, or are you going to do a Rude by looking at those and making a fresh exception, something like "those are not fights"?...

... all off topic, of course. But it's clear that the on topic portion of this thread is over.

Offline straffo

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Small Maps – a Creeping Process. Hmmm…
« Reply #107 on: March 08, 2004, 08:42:26 AM »
I don't understand all this agitation aroung AKDessert when BigIsle is certainly the worst map ...

This map promote timidity and horde behaviour (IMO of course)

add to that that silly 25% fuel and it's a fun killer

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #108 on: March 08, 2004, 08:50:11 AM »
MetaTron! Yep, and just look - Toad/Slapshot, all dying to turn this into a thread about play styles etc. and the rights and wrongs of one style versus another, despite the fact that the unofficial squad mantra is to fly what you like, how you like, and despite the fact they claim "not to give a fig" about what/how anyone else plays this game, while they provide subtle assertions that *their* way is the only *correct* way. Can you say "hypocrite"?

Beet ...

MetaVoss's input means nothing ... simple as that.

I/We are not turning this thread into anything. It was you who came to the table with claims and films of the merits of AKDesert, and I/we simple called you on them. I have not made one mention of "furball", "weedwacker" so I don't see how I was trying to turn this whine ... err ... thread into a "play styles" discussion.

Example ... 4 v 4 with NO vulches ... after being called on it now turns into 2 v 4 with 1 vulch. Beet, you need to be consistant inorder to maintain credibility.  

Still, if you can't get one over me in the present day, why not talk about the past, of days gone by when I wasn't even here.

I think that that revelation did "get one over on ya" ... :rofl

... and now you are doing the "Texas 2-Step" trying to turn this around to us ruining this thread.

Keep "stick stirrin'" buddy ... :D

Oh ... and inorder to stay ON TOPIC ... I don't mind AKDesert (I HATE MINDANO MORE). I would like to see some tweaks made to this map so that EVERYBODY™ could enjoy it and these whines would fade into the sunset.:rofl
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Offline Toad

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Small Maps – a Creeping Process. Hmmm…
« Reply #109 on: March 08, 2004, 08:52:19 AM »
Here's the difference that escapes you Beet. I'm not suprised.

Your vitriol about my D30 flying is easily disproven by the available HTC official stats. In short, you are PROVEN wrong.

My assumption about your Excellent AKD Map Adventure is that you were in a position of advantage throughout the fight. You have not disproven that assumption although you say you could quite easily by posting the film.

If I'm wrong, I'll apologize. But don't tell me, SHOW me. Just like I showed you that YOU were wrong about my D30 flying.

You've ALREADY been proven wrong.

See the difference?

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Oh yeah? Well I could post film from last week on the small map, showing


Hmm...eager to post THAT glorious film but totally reluctant to post your glorious AKD Jug film?  :rofl

I have an idea....... post them both. I'll actually do something I've never done and watch them. Then I'll let you know what I think.

If you had advantage the entire time, don't expect me to be impressed though. You're supposed to win when you have the advantage. BTW, what F4U was that? Could it possibly be the -1C?

Still waiting for you to admit you were wrong about the D30.
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Offline beet1e

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Small Maps – a Creeping Process. Hmmm…
« Reply #110 on: March 08, 2004, 11:38:30 AM »
ROFL! This P47 sortie of mine has to be the most talked about sortie I've ever flown. :lol

Slapshot. Define a vulch. Does the aircraft have to be over the runway with his wheels still down for it to be a vulch? If so, it wasn't a vulch. As previously stated, I was de-acking the field. As I pulled out of the dive immediately after killing an ack, I saw in front of me a F6F. It was going after DRKNIGHT, my squaddie. I had been concentrating on aiming at the ack, and was less than 1000 yards from a LA5 on my 6. So... between killing the ack and calling VonHoltz's 6, I didn't know at the time whether the F6F had just taken off. So I called Cod on the red phone on my desk to ask Him to suspend Time while I consulted the .PDF version of the TAS rulebook, as I needed to know whether there was any rule or lawful impediment forbidding the killing of the F6F. I could find none in either testament, and Cod could see no reason why I shouldn't kill the F6F, so He restarted Time, and I was allowed to kill it.  Here's what the view looked like just ahead of me...



... and this was the view behind me...



So I take it back. The F6F was well clear of the field. So it wasn't a vulch. What's the TAS/Middle Aged Testament have to say about that? But WTF difference does it make in a thread about map rotation? :rolleyes:

Oh and you said
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I would like to see some tweaks made to this map so that EVERYBODY™ could enjoy it and these whines would fade into the sunset.
Oh I see. You're in the business of making all maps enjoyable to all players? Then may I ask when we can expect the fields on the small maps to be spaced out a little more to discourage interlopers, and some airfields converted to vehicle fields? It's just that I know how some folks enjoy those GV battles. :aok

Failing that, you may have to do what I have done - accept that you're never going to arrive at a situation where all the players like all the maps. It's just never going to happen. And I don't mind - so long as rotation is balanced and fair - the subject of my thread. :)

Mr. Toad! :) Sorry about that - I used some of your red ink without asking you first. :D

Once again, absolutely nothing you said was on topic, but as it's you I'll let it pass!

So, you flew a few D30 sorties four years ago, before Innominate's stat collection was running. Am I supposed to be impressed? Doesn't look like you set the world on fire with it. :p But what have your stats from four years ago got to do with a discussion about the large maps in AH in 2004? Precisely nothing. Which is exactly much as your apology is worth to me. So you can keep it.
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Still waiting for you to admit you were wrong about the D30.
Still waiting for you to admit you were wrong about the "5 vulches".

Offline Toad

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Small Maps – a Creeping Process. Hmmm…
« Reply #111 on: March 08, 2004, 12:00:24 PM »
Shifty, you  are lots of fun. There's few around here that can dance around what they say like you do.

Look, you started this thread as a whine about small maps. You enumerate all the reasons you don't like small maps while admitting that the large maps have the same things. Then you post about your glorious Jug sortie on AKD, a sortie that you supposedly can't achieve on a small map.

So, the obvious question is why don't you like small maps? You admit they have the same problems as the big maps.

The key is in what you find so desirable in the "choice" the big maps provide. I suggest that what you find desirable is the ability to fly an unopposed sortie or perhaps a sortie where you never find yourself at a disadvantage.

This is germane to the discussion. You whine about the small maps because you supposedly can't do the type of sortie you like to do.

And what type is that? The sortie where you have the advantage at all times. :D

So, I feel the reasoning behind your dislike of small maps is not really what you portray it to be. It's quite on topic to discuss that, IMO.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Small Maps – a Creeping Process. Hmmm…
« Reply #112 on: March 08, 2004, 12:16:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
But what have your stats from four years ago got to do with a discussion about the large maps in AH in 2004? Precisely nothing....Still waiting for you to admit you were wrong about the "5 vulches".


Allow me to point out YOU brought up my D30 stats. You just keep stepping into it don't you?

If you're so worried about trying to stay on topic, why'd YOU bring them up?

I do think it illustrates a point Rude made some time ago. You seem to think you're the only one that has experience in some particular area. Pretty clear that I've been / there done that in the D30 a long time before you even showed up here.

Anyway, you were trying to prove some point... whatever it might have been... and you just didn't do your homework. You embarassed yourself yet again. OF course, even though the HTC data is there for all to see, you just can't bring your fingers to type "Sorry, Toad, I was wrong". I find that laughable and pretty indiciative of your credibility.

As for the actual stats,I flew it like a turnfighter; I doubt you've tried that very much. Given my mode of heading straight for the fight, I'm not unhappy with those stats.

The "five vultches"? Well, as I said, I'll cheerfully retract that and admit I was wrong and apologize as well. AFTER you show me. Post the film. What have you to hide?

Oh... wait... you didn't answer the F4U-1C question about your recent glorious F4U sortie either. :rofl
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #113 on: March 08, 2004, 01:15:43 PM »
"Slapshot. Define a vulch. Does the aircraft have to be over the runway with his wheels still down for it to be a vulch?"

D ... any or all of the above. (pretty hard to be under the runway if you think about it ... hehehe)

"So I called Cod on the red phone on my desk to ask Him to suspend Time while I consulted the .PDF version of the TAS rulebook, as I needed to know whether there was any rule or lawful impediment forbidding the killing of the F6F. I could find none in either testament, and Cod could see no reason why I shouldn't kill the F6F, so He restarted Time, and I was allowed to kill it."

"So I take it back. The F6F was well clear of the field. So it wasn't a vulch. What's the TAS/Middle Aged Testament have to say about that?"

Don't know where this 'tude comes from. There is nobody in the 13th TAS that is above a good vulch and never have I/we allued to such. I only called you on the fact that you originally stated that your 5 kills contained no vulches and the math didn't add up. I wasn't calling you on the act of vulching, just the fact that it was impossible to land a 5 kill sortie in a self-described 4 v 4 fight. And you can't take it back ... you already admitted to it being a vulch ... I called "no take backzees" before.

By the way .. how is Cod doing these days ?

"Oh I see. You're in the business of making all maps enjoyable to all players? Then may I ask when we can expect the fields on the small maps to be spaced out a little more to discourage interlopers, and some airfields converted to vehicle fields? It's just that I know how some folks enjoy those GV battles."

I am not in the business ... not yet at least. If I had my druthers ... I would chit-can all those small maps. They don't work well with the amount of players that we now see Prime Time USA. 600 people on Lake U is unbearable at times.

"And I don't mind - so long as rotation is balanced and fair - the subject of my thread."

Well ... again to follow the vein of this thread ... I AGREE with you Beet ... how's that ?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2004, 01:18:29 PM by SlapShot »
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Offline beet1e

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Small Maps – a Creeping Process. Hmmm…
« Reply #114 on: March 08, 2004, 05:23:46 PM »
Mr. Toad! I’m glad I keep you amused. I really am. :)  Your latest missive contains a few errors – let us discuss these.
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Look, you started this thread as a whine about small maps.
No, it was not a whine about the small maps. It was a whine about the somewhat distorted map rotation that I’m seeing these days. I won’t whine about the small maps, because there are maps that I do like – Pizza and Trinity are my favourites.

What don’t I like about the small maps? – the interlopers, the viability of upping from the base next door when you come under attack, the ease and effect that the fuel porkage tactic can be deployed, and the furball gameplay that they engender – that, as you well know, is not to my taste – and the way that gameplay becomes focussed between two particular points, the end result of which is Furball-Furball-Furball.

What do I like about the big maps? You said
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I suggest that what you find desirable is the ability to fly an unopposed sortie or perhaps a sortie where you never find yourself at a disadvantage.
No, it’s not that. I like the fact that the front line is spread out. It means that play will not be concentrated at a certain focal point. On the small maps, there will be a great deal of furballing and gangbanging at that point. Just because the map is big does not mean that I will never be at a disadvantage. Look at that second sortie – my friendlies had augered, and I had no aerial support. I was carrying 2x1000, and there was a co alt Spit and a higher MOSS waiting for me.
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This is germane to the discussion. You whine about the small maps because you supposedly can't do the type of sortie you like to do. And what type is that? The sortie where you have the advantage at all times.
Not exactly. The small maps can be sort of OK, when there are not too many people online. As to the type of sortie I like to do – I did those F4U sorties 21k and 2 idiot deaths – but I got bored with it. It was like seal clubbing. I can send you those F4U films – there was a three way battle going on – I only realised that when viewing the film afterwards – LOL! (Getting varifocals next week :aok) About the small maps, you said
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On small maps, you have to fight. All the time. To and from the targets.
Well, those F4U battles were on a small map…

As for the F4U in use – yes, the 1C! And with good reason. I had been flying an F6F but was killed while intercepting low buffs. So I switched to the 1C – it’s an excellent defence against buffs – check my k/h in attack mode for tour 49. Having said that, the buffs didn’t show, and I could have got all the kills I got in a 1D which, in my opinion, seems to be lighter/more nimble and flies better than the 1C. I flew the 1D much more than the 1C in tour 49.
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So, I feel the reasoning behind your dislike of small maps is not really what you portray it to be. It's quite on topic to discuss that, IMO.
I’ve moved on from where you are in the script. I’m past map whining, because I know that map utopia – the situation whereby all players like all maps – is a hypothetical scenario which can never be achieved. Instead, all I ask for is balanced and fair map rotation.
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Allow me to point out YOU brought up my D30 stats. You just keep stepping into it don't you?
Yes I did, because you seemed to be castigating me for flying the P47D25 as a B&Z plane, which you perceive as flying from an advantage. You seemed to be saying that I should be flying it as a 2K weed wacker. I could tell you didn’t have much of a clue about how to fly those heavy P47s, and this was borne out by your P47 stats. Your stats in Innominate’s database were bad enough, but when you pointed out those earlier tours – 17k/19d – LOL! –pretty pitiful actually. Now if that had been me, I would have worked at getting better in that plane. It would have been a challenge. But you seem to have given up on it because you couldn’t make it succeed as a 2K weed wacker.
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Pretty clear that I've been / there done that in the D30
BS. You’ve done fig-all in the P47, and know fig all about how it should be flown. No wonder you sucked.
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You embarassed yourself yet again.
No I didn’t. The correct spelling is embarrassed, by the way.
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Given my mode of heading straight for the fight, I'm not unhappy with those stats.
LOL! 17 kills and 19 deaths? No further comment required. :lol

And on to Slapshot! OK, so that F6F was clear of the field and with his wheels up. That would have sounded like 2 questions to Lazs. :lol So, the one kill in question was not a vulch after all. As previously stated there was one prox kill, as it turns out. The kill I thought I’d got there was in fact an assist. (Spit)

I don’t know Cod, but I knew a Codd – Edgar Codd who worked for IBM. I read his 1969 book about database design methodology. If only everyone had developed systems as suggested by Codd, there wouldn’t be nearly the number of mess-ups!

Other than that – we seem to agree! :):aok

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #115 on: March 08, 2004, 06:11:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
beetle... how wrong can you be if metavoss is on your side?


dredilocks is correct.  the map could easily be fixed in the way he describes.   The more fields/areas that are fixed the better the gameplay and the more choice.

lazs


Im almost always correct but thats besides the point :D

And its Drediock pronounced Dred EE ock
:p
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Offline Shane

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Small Maps – a Creeping Process. Hmmm…
« Reply #116 on: March 08, 2004, 08:34:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
OK, first the P-47 thing. Sorry to tell you this Beet, you've been deceived but probably not intentionally. Innominates Career Stats are simply incorrect.


not so much incorrect as incomplete... his stats start at tour 24 (i think) and up to date.

just sayin'
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Offline Toad

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Small Maps – a Creeping Process. Hmmm…
« Reply #117 on: March 08, 2004, 09:03:24 PM »
Beet, Beet, Beet....

You've goofed again.

I'm not going to do ALL your homework for you. I didn't list all the tours I in which I flew the D30. Just enough to show you were wrong the first time.

Check Tour 11 for instance.

You simply haven't reviewed all my stats. I've flown the D30. Not very much in the max boredom, ultra risk avoidance mode of course; that's not my style.

There's no doubt you can better my stats in a D30; I'll never fly the way you do. There was a time when I did; Rude sorta insisted and I went along with it. However, that was in a P-51. I can fly "carefully" or "realistically" or whatever the current euphemism happens to be but it bores me to tears.

Now as to your F4U-1C escapade, I only asked because I wondered if the guy that continually denigrates P-51/La-7/Spit/N1K1 pilots would himself fly the easiest-killing F4U of them all, the four Hispano powerhouse. (Oh.. yeah... check my stats in that too. :rofl I suggest you do not use Innominate's page for that this time.)

Suprise, suprise. You are just too funny... the walking contradiction. :rofl
« Last Edit: March 08, 2004, 10:15:47 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Small Maps – a Creeping Process. Hmmm…
« Reply #118 on: March 08, 2004, 09:12:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Yes I did, because you seemed to be castigating me for flying the P47D25 as a B&Z plane, which you perceive as flying from an advantage.


Please show me where I said anything negative at all about your choice of aircraft. Please show me where I castigated you at all. Quotes, if you would.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Shane

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« Reply #119 on: March 08, 2004, 10:11:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Please show me where I said anything negative at all about your choice of aircraft. Please show me where I castigated you at all. Quotes, if you would.


he's self-castrated.


oooo... you said castigated... my bad.
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
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Truth doesn't need exaggeration.