Author Topic: To be PC, or not to be PC....  (Read 6463 times)

Offline Steve

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« Reply #225 on: April 09, 2004, 01:59:45 PM »
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But what if opportunity is limited by racial bigotry?


Is already is for some white people:  AA.
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Offline ravells

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« Reply #226 on: April 09, 2004, 03:11:23 PM »
I think the reason why we have race discrimination laws is not to force people not to use terms like 'jap'  or whatever. It is to ensure that a person is not treated less favourably because of his racial background.  And it should work both ways, if a white person is treated less favourably than a black, yellow or brown person, he should have the right to redress. Any other view is just hypocricy.

These laws have worked. Just see where we are now, in terms of racial tolerance in our countries compared to say, 20 or 40 years ago. Of course there is always a danger that the laws will be used as a sword instead of a shield (for which they were intended)


I think AA is going too far. People should be hired on their merits, not because of the colour of their skins or their beliefs. Race discrimination laws address that whilst keeping a level playing field.

I use the term 'jap', and my japanese friends don't mind. Perhaps this is a difference between US and Europe; but over here, most of the ones I've met don't see any malice behind the term, and that is where I think Lasz is right. It's about whether there is malice behind what is said that makes it hurtful.  Of course if someone I knew did find it hurtful, I would stop using it in their presence: why make a scene over a word?

Although I am brown in colour, but speak in English received pronunciation, my friends in university would tell 'paki' jokes but consider me 'English' and assume I would not take offence. And I wouldn't take offence, because I knew the people, and the jokes wern't meant maliciously. They may as well have been telling jokes about people with big noses or disturbed teeth.

You cannot make broad rules for this subject. You have to be aware of the audience you are adressing and, to be polite, ensure that you don't offend. If it's a wide audience (like this BBS) where you don't know who might be listening, you ought to be a little cautious. If you are having a few beers with your mates in your living room, then you can be less cautious.

It's not rocket science.

Ravs

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #227 on: April 09, 2004, 03:26:22 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
none of the terms for white people bother me..  intent bothers me.  I will not ban words because they may possibly offend a portion of one race or gender or creed.

I will continue to use the word jap when I wish.

And that's what it is all about isn't it... on half japanesse player searching for his "roots"...  Not searching for anything....keep your searching for excuses to justify racial epithets.

I make no justification for anything I say unless asked for it and then... only if I wish to give a justification.

I reserve the right to say any word that is appropriate to the situation... I consider myself a polite person.   I consider a lot of people hypersensitive and because of their hypersensitivity they are adding to the problem.You know, for someone that talks a lot about hypersensitive people, you sure get all hypersensitive in your excuses to keep using certain words. Most would be adult about it and figure that somehow some here are insulted by certain language being typed here in public and out of respect will try to refrain from using it. Hint: J-P-N are closer together on the keyboard rather than  J-A-P. Do you call German people and things "GERMS"? Hey, it's shorter. Funny that you have no problem typing out German, American, but Japanese? "Oh no! that's too long for me to type!! Boo-hoo!!" Spare me your so-called "reasons" for using certain derogatory labels. I see we're halfway there, you won't type n*****, even though you'll say it in person. Type what you want, just quit with the lame excuses. It was a respectful request by me nothing more. You have every right to keep typing however the heck you please. I'm not the pc police.

PC seeks to ban words... bottom line... are you for banning words?  the books they may be in?   How bout music or movies?

To me, jap is short for japanesse.   I will not be around a person who is offended if I say "jap car".  

subaru... you never anwswered my question tho... do you know the terms the japanesse use for white people and what it means?I don't speak Japanese nor have I ever used derogatory labels dealing with people. I don't know what they are. This is another attempt to justify your using racial epithets here in public against some that find it offensive?  Keep deluding yourself that certain racial epithets are acceptable. Is that clear enough for you now?

lazs
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline ravells

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« Reply #228 on: April 09, 2004, 03:29:15 PM »
Saburo...do you find the word Jap offensive because you think there's a sense of malice behind it?

Ravs

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #229 on: April 09, 2004, 03:32:01 PM »
Three Star General Benjamin O. Davis, Jr seemed to succeed above and beyond without any AA.
-SW

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #230 on: April 09, 2004, 03:37:42 PM »
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Three Star General Benjamin O. Davis, Jr seemed to succeed above and beyond without any AA.
-SW


So you guys would have excluded the Tuskegee Airmen from your "club of the finest". I mean if they weren't an example of AA then what is?

And how many contemporary Generals did Davis have who were also Black? Silly SW.

Offline Tarmac

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« Reply #231 on: April 09, 2004, 03:46:51 PM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
So you guys would have excluded the Tuskegee Airmen from your "club of the finest". I mean if they weren't an example of AA then what is?


They were the finest because they were good at what they did.  They were held to the same (actually higher) standard as any other pilot.

I don't see how AA applies to the Tuskegee Airmen... they became pilots by being equal to other pilots, not by being inferior -- but black -- pilots.

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #232 on: April 09, 2004, 03:47:19 PM »
They didn't get any preferential treatment, they are not an example of AA at all. They were excellent across the board, and got there under their own volition.

I've seen slots filled by less-than-competent people that didn't even have degrees in the field - they had useless degrees - but that was to fill a quota. Thanks to AA.

AA may have been needed in the past, but not anymore. Where I grew up and lived, and who I played with on the playground was a far cry from any segregation or discrimination any of you older folks faced. Keeping AA around will do more damage for the upcomming generations than it will to help anything.
-SW

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #233 on: April 09, 2004, 04:18:57 PM »
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Originally posted by ravells
Saburo...do you find the word Jap offensive because you think there's a sense of malice behind it?

Ravs


Ravs,
The history of its usage was born out of malice. Everytime it's used, it reminds some of us of a time not pleasant to be a minority. Does that mean that some here using it today have malice when they use it? No. but maybe that shouldn't be the question. Shouldn't it be that those victims of certain labels should be reminded, by those very labels of a time very unpleasant? I hate all labels and feel they do not belong here in a public forum. I don't like labels were borne in a period to label those minorities that were supposed to be less of a human being than whites.

I'll give you this example:
A non-Jewish teenager not knowing of the Holocaust goes to his nearest neighborhood synagog and puts up a poster of a swastika on the front door. Is that okay? I mean the swastika also is a native Indian religious symbol? I mean his intent wasn't to hurt others. He didn't know better. Was it okay for the Jewish Patrons to be upset by that symbol, or are they just being "sensitive"? I mean the kid isn't killing any Jewish people, right?
Certain symbols/labels are just potentially too powerfully hateful despite they just being "words" or "pictures." Real people have been killed, their property taken, etc. because of the actions behind those labels/symbols. Harmless? Not to those that were victims.

People will do whatever they do for whatever reason. What they do in the privacy of their home doesn't bother me.

Edit...added:

Main Entry: Jap
Pronunciation: 'jap
Function: noun or adjective
usually disparaging
« Last Edit: April 09, 2004, 04:35:06 PM by SaburoS »
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #234 on: April 09, 2004, 05:45:24 PM »
You guys obviously don't understand AA.

Sure, the Tuskegee Airmen excelled at their craft. But it took a QUOTA to even give them the chance. They wouldn't have been recruited for their training without the implementation of a law requiring a black air wing.

It's all about opportunity to excel, not compromising the measure of excellence.

Offline SOB

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« Reply #235 on: April 09, 2004, 05:55:46 PM »
You obviously don't understand what equal means.  Equal means giving EVERYONE a fair shot to excel.  Mandating an advantage for certain groups of people is not equal.
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Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #236 on: April 09, 2004, 05:56:13 PM »
You've obviously not been in the federal government where filling the quota doesn't mean with quality.

AA is a far cry from an experiment, which is exactly what the Tuskegee Airmen were. AA was designed to level the playing field in the past, today the only place its needed is some hick town in the middle of the country.
-SW

Offline ravells

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« Reply #237 on: April 09, 2004, 06:43:46 PM »
Saburu, the history may have been born out of malice (although I seriously think that it was just an abbreviation which represented a people that the US hated at the time...much worse words could have been chosen).

I am looking at it linguistically. Words have a taboo power only if they are rarely used. The word F**k has almost lost that power because it is used far more commonly today than in the past.

Your example doesn't stand up to examination. The Nazis used a reverse swastika, (although most people would probably not know the difference these days), but the point is that in your example, a young jewish man WOULD know the significance of the symbol and the effect it would have by posting it up on a synagogue.

The question I'm asking is whether the word 'Jap' is one of those words/symbols.  It may be disparaging in the US, but in the UK I think not so much (although polite people here would never say that word to a japanese person unless we knew he or she would not take offense).

In my family in England, we would talk about going to the 'chinky' to pick up a chinese meal, or going to the 'paki shop' to get some ciggarettes, using the word more as a shorthand than anything derogatory.

On the subject of AA, I think that both mt and Wulfie have hit the nail on the head in both of their posts. The disadvantage that minorties suffer is not even being given the chance. In the case of the US, it was really the second world war that gave blacks the respect they deserved (and even after that they had to fight for equal recognition).  AA is important when the playing field is so skewed that minorities don't even get a look in, because, as Lasz said, 'if they came to me for a job, I would be nice to them, but I would put a line through their name.'  So the only way to right the balance is not to have the Lasz's of the world have the choice. And over time, when people don't have the choice but to hire minorties, their views change. Which is what has happened in the US since the 60s.

But Wulfe is also right. I think that now the playing field is more or less balanced and the risks of minorities using the 'race card' to get an unfair advantage is (in my experience) reasonably high.  And if the playing field is reasonably level and Lasz wants to put a line through someone's name because he happens to be black, then fine, there ought to be enough jobs that black person can go and find someone else and Lasz can live the life he chooses by isolating himself from people he feels he does not relate to.

It's all a question of balance, and depth of choice.

My belief is that the US should get away from AA and just have race discrimination laws that apply to everybody....so (as I have seen so often cited here as an example) if a white person wants to enter a 'Ms Black America' contest, then by all means let her. And if they don't let her join, then the organisers ought to be answerable for being discriminatory.

I originally come from a country (Malaysia) where AA has been ruinious. Malaysia has three ethnic populations: Chinese, Malays and Indians.  Traditionally the Malays have been rural and very poor, the Chinese economically successful and urban and the Indians mostly poor but with some in the professional classes.

AA was brought in (after race riots in 1969) to help the Malays.  This meant that a Malay passes an exam at 45% whereas an Indian or Chinese passes the same exam at 55%. All companies in Malaysia MUST have at least a 30% shareholding of Malays. Malay students get all expenses paid scholarships (on the taxpayer's money) to places like Australia, the US and England.

The result? The Malays expect life to be handed to them on a plate, some work hard but not most.  If the government ever even makes an indication that it's going to change its policy on this, they will be voted out of office.  This is not a good way to carry on.

Ravs

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #238 on: April 09, 2004, 06:47:57 PM »
AA is racism. Who can come here and argue that it is not?

Since we all agree AA is racist, I guess the people that support AA agree with racism, as long as it's "good" racism.

Offline ravells

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« Reply #239 on: April 09, 2004, 06:53:05 PM »
AA *is* racism. But in extreme cases you have to use racism to combat racism.

Just as you have to take away some civil liberties to protect the greater civil liberties when you are under an imminent terrorist threat.

Or.. as Gene Hackman said in 'Crimson Tide', "I'm not here to practice democracy, I'm here to protect it"

It's one of those paradoxes of human life.

Ravs