To be PC, or not to be PC....

[NUKE]

Originally posted by ravells
AA *is* racism. But in extreme cases you have to use racism to combat racism.

Just as you have to take away some civil liberties to protect the greater civil liberties when you are under an imminent terrorist threat.

Or.. as Gene Hackman said in 'Crimson Tide', "I'm not here to practice democracy, I'm here to protect it"

It's one of those paradoxes of human life.

Ravs

Then make everything AA, like sports. Require every enterprise to hire a percentage of races based on population and not qualifications.

Brain surgeons? Just make sure you get a nice racial mix, nothing else should matter. Make passing grades for medical school vary by race, not correct answers on tests.

And, I have not lost any civil liberties due to terrorist threats.

[ravells]

You've lost some liberties you otherwise had through the Patriot Act. (See a previous thread on the subject), and I think in this political climate, quite right. I have no complaints about it, as do you.

As I said, it's all about balance and a depth of choice.  I think that AA has gone too far in the States, but there was a time when it was required, IMO.

Your Brain Surgeon point made me chuckle. Reminded me of an episode of MASH when Hawkeye convinced a deep south guy that his life had been saved by a black man who gave him his blood.

We shouldn't be so stupid that we can't give people who are so obviously disadvantaged a head start in order to improve their lives. Otherwise we just build them into an underclass and a future problem.

Ravs

[Sixpence]

Great, just great, 240 posts on political correctness, and only 10 on the NFL draft. What kind of horrid place is this!!

[ravells]

Suffer, baby

[Tarmac]

Originally posted by ravells
We shouldn't be so stupid that we can't give people who are so obviously disadvantaged a head start in order to improve their lives.

"Give."  

You can give anyone you want anything you want.  If you think that a particular person has had a rough go of things, based on their race or whatever, you are free to invest in their unfulfilled potential.  But when you legislate that I have to, or that society has to, it's not being given, its being coerced.

[ravells]

Sure, it's being coerced.

In the sixties, in America, when they legislated that segragation had to stop, that brave black girl refused to sit in the 'blacks only' part of the bus. So who was being coerced there?

As I said, there are times when AA is necesarry. But I think that (from the little that I know compared to you lot) in America today, it's past its sell by date and you ought to have race discrimination laws which punish people for race discrimination, regardless of their colour and just ditch the AA thing.

I suspect the reason why it hasn't been ditched is that black voters are seen as 'swing' voters (although I understand they traditionally vote democrat)

Ravs

[Sixpence]

" If your car is over 25 years old and has over 800,000 miles, press 4-7"

47

"oh, hello Al Bundy"

[Bluedog]

The same word has differant meanings/conotations in differant places.
I've been labeled a racist salamander many a time for using the word Jap. on the net  ( note period Sab )
Fair enough, maybe it  is used as an insult in the US, I dont know, but here in Australia, it is an abbreviation of the word Japanese.
Americans root  their favourite football or baseball team right? You could walk into a football team's dressing room and ask if it was OK for you to root them, and they'd be cool with that right?

Try that down here. I dare ya They might be all for it if you are real unlucky. If you are lucky, they'll just kill you.

Point is, we both speak 'English', we use many of the same words, but they sometimes have vastly differant meanings, usages and histories.
Should I change the way I speak because some of the words my be insulting in some other country? Maybe, but the Yanks better cut it out with all that rooting....it's just....shocking.
There's a (German I think) company that makes ovens and stovetops and stuff called Smeg,  cripes!! how revolting is that?!! They had better damn well change that word NOW! It's pretty offensive stuff down here.

The whole thing is just jumping at shadows IMHO, taking offence where none is offered.  
Lighten up, accept that we are all very differant people/s, with differant customs , yet in a great many ways we're all alike. Remember the old sticks and stones thing and get on with experiencing other people's views on stuff, instead of getting all shirty because you think that someone is trying to offend you when in fact they are not.



Think of it another way, if in fact they ARE trying to insult you, and you take no notice whatsoever of the insult, havent you just completely defeated their efforts and made the insult worthless anyway?

Just my 2c, apparently a lot of you guys disagree....doesnt offend me one little bit

[mietla]

Originally posted by ravells


... you ought to have race discrimination laws which punish people for race discrimination

This is simply unconstitutional (not to mention absurd). I have a constitutional right to be racist (or sexist or whatever). I may choose not to exercise my rights, but this is my decision, not yours.

You mean you would send a race police into people's houses to make sure that their dinner party is racially balanced?

Government can't discriminate, you and I can.

You can't trample people's liberties just because you want to social engineer society to your liking. No matter how noble your goal is. You can persuade or ask, but you can't coerce.

No one has a right to "shape" the society. The society shapes itself.

So, all you Ramses, Alexander, Tiberius, Claudius, Napoleon, Stalin , Pol Pot (stick your favorite name in here) types, go fly a kite.

[SaburoS]

Originally posted by ravells
Saburu, the history may have been born out of malice (although I seriously think that it was just an abbreviation which represented a people that the US hated at the time...much worse words could have been chosen).
But they weren't. "Jap" and "Nip" were the chosen labels used commonly in a derogatory way during a hateful time during our history. It was the the deeds done, not the words that make the labels damaging.

I am looking at it linguistically. Words have a taboo power only if they are rarely used. The word F**k has almost lost that power because it is used far more commonly today than in the past. By that logic, we should be using racially derogatory labels and swear words more often, all to make it lose the taboo power? Sorry, I don't buy that explaination. I don't know any parent personally that would think "F**K" coming out of their 8 y.o. child to be anything but unacceptable. "F**K" is still not acceptable business language in a majority of situations.

Your example doesn't stand up to examination. The Nazis used a reverse swastika, (although most people would probably not know the difference these days), but the point is that in your example, a young jewish man WOULD know the significance of the symbol and the effect it would have by posting it up on a synagogue.
Sorry, but your answer to my sample doesn't hold up. Re-read it. Take it in its full context as I intended. Sorry, the Nazi's used a version of the Swastika that was most prevailent in history. The Swastika used to be a meaning for peace along with other positive meanings. It was the Nazi ideology that turned the Swastika's meaning on its ear. Oh, there were Swastikas in history (before the Nazi's used them) that used a counterclockwise bend, but most samples found show them to be in the clockwise bend. Most people don't know that difference. Also, noticed I used the term "non-Jewish teenager" in my sample. Most teenagers just don't know about the Holocaust and Hitler's "Final Solution". We can disect and argue the points in my made up sample further if you wish, but we're splitting hairs if we do.

The question I'm asking is whether the word 'Jap' is one of those words/symbols.
It isn't to the extent of say "N****r" as a lot worse has been done to Blacks, for a lot longer period. With 10 being the worst, I hold "N****r" as a 10, "Jap","Nip", "Chink", "Raghead", "Wetback", and "Kike" as an 8. To keep this brief, I'll stop my samples here as I could go on, long list.These are all labels that are representations of a very real victimization of various minority groups here in my country. Not for what they did, but only because they looked, sounded different via dress, customs, speech, skin color, culture. A minority calling me a racial epithet (yes, I've been called "Honky" "Cracker" and "N****r" by minorities. Those labels by them don't bother me as much as they don't represent a group that could keep me down via housing, jobs, schooling, etc.  
It may be disparaging in the US,
I am speaking only of my country as since I'm an American, I'd comment on an unfortunate time in American History.  
but in the UK I think not so much (although polite people here would never say that word to a japanese person unless we knew he or she would not take offense).
So by admission, polite people in your country don't use that term initially with a Japanese person present. How do you determine if "Jap" is an offensive word to that Japanese person? Do you ask them: "Excuse me kind sir, do you mind if I use Jap in describing Japanese things or people? I mean actually saying Japanese is rather a long word and we'd rather not be bothered so." Or: You wait until that Japanese person starts saying "Jap" in his descriptions?

In my family in England, we would talk about going to the 'chinky' to pick up a chinese meal, or going to the 'paki shop' to get some ciggarettes, using the word more as a shorthand than anything derogatory.

On the subject of AA, I think that both mt and Wulfie have hit the nail on the head in both of their posts. The disadvantage that minorties suffer is not even being given the chance. In the case of the US, it was really the second world war that gave blacks the respect they deserved (and even after that they had to fight for equal recognition).  AA is important when the playing field is so skewed that minorities don't even get a look in, because, as Lasz said, 'if they came to me for a job, I would be nice to them, but I would put a line through their name.'  So the only way to right the balance is not to have the Lasz's of the world have the choice. And over time, when people don't have the choice but to hire minorties, their views change. Which is what has happened in the US since the 60s.

But Wulfe is also right. I think that now the playing field is more or less balanced and the risks of minorities using the 'race card' to get an unfair advantage is (in my experience) reasonably high.  And if the playing field is reasonably level and Lasz wants to put a line through someone's name because he happens to be black, then fine, there ought to be enough jobs that black person can go and find someone else and Lasz can live the life he chooses by isolating himself from people he feels he does not relate to.

It's all a question of balance, and depth of choice.

My belief is that the US should get away from AA and just have race discrimination laws that apply to everybody....so (as I have seen so often cited here as an example) if a white person wants to enter a 'Ms Black America' contest, then by all means let her. And if they don't let her join, then the organisers ought to be answerable for being discriminatory.

I originally come from a country (Malaysia) where AA has been ruinious. Malaysia has three ethnic populations: Chinese, Malays and Indians.  Traditionally the Malays have been rural and very poor, the Chinese economically successful and urban and the Indians mostly poor but with some in the professional classes.

AA was brought in (after race riots in 1969) to help the Malays.  This meant that a Malay passes an exam at 45% whereas an Indian or Chinese passes the same exam at 55%. All companies in Malaysia MUST have at least a 30% shareholding of Malays. Malay students get all expenses paid scholarships (on the taxpayer's money) to places like Australia, the US and England.

The result? The Malays expect life to be handed to them on a plate, some work hard but not most.  If the government ever even makes an indication that it's going to change its policy on this, they will be voted out of office.  This is not a good way to carry on.

Ravs

I'll close with this as I don't have the time to answer everyone's posts that use the same reasoning for excuses:
Look at the banner flying in this BBS. It says "Brits against the Japanese." It does not say "Brits against the Japs." It does not say "The British against the Japanese."
Why is that? It because as I've tried to explain in this thread. "Brits", "Yanks", "Aussie" (some samples) have not been used in a derogatory way nor have those same people been persecuted by my country's populous.
the Swastika has been used positively for centuries before the Nazi's turned it into an evil symbol. Should Hitech allow it on it's planes in AH2? Should Germany and other European nations not have it outlawed? I mean, by some explainations, one would think that we should have swear words, Racial epithets, Swastikas posted on everything and everywhere. After all let's help those evil, bad things lose their bite and evil meaning! Let's start teaching our youth to say these things!
Sorry, but I don't buy that argument. It usually takes being a victim to understand my position. If you wish to continue to use your labels despite knowing they could be offensive to some, you go right ahead. I'm not the pc police.
I've had my say in this matter and explained it the best I can. I apologize to those that don't understand. Keep in mind that this is a business and it gets better by expanding and increasing its player base. If you want to make it uncomfortable so our Arab and islamic players in this community to leave, keep using the term "Raghead" (trust me, those that play this game are not terrorists willing to bring down Western civilization.). For those that wish the players of Japanese dissent to not enjoy the experience of AH, please continue to use "Jap" or "Nip". People don't play a game just so they can be reminded of hateful things (whether intentional or not). Please remember that the next time you feel a need to use ant hateful language.
That is all I'm going to say on the matter. Any more and we'll be going around in circles. Thank you all for your time, and best regards.

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by mietla
I have a constitutional right to be racist

   Talk about interpretation. That made my day, i'm gonna have to use that one.

[lazs2]

subaro said...  "You know, for someone that talks a lot about hypersensitive people, you sure get all hypersensitive in your excuses to keep using certain words. Most would be adult about it and figure that somehow some here are insulted by certain language being typed here in public and out of respect will try to refrain from using it. Hint: J-P-N are closer together on the keyboard rather than J-A-P. Do you call German people and things "GERMS"? Hey, it's shorter. Funny that you have no problem typing out German, American, but Japanese? "Oh no! that's too long for me to type!! Boo-hoo!!" Spare me your so-called "reasons" for using certain derogatory labels. I see we're halfway there, you won't type n*****, even though you'll say it in person. Type what you want, just quit with the lame excuses. It was a respectful request by me nothing more. You have every right to keep typing however the heck you please. I'm not the pc police. "

Now that is funny... I am not the one who got on here and was so sensitive that I hid my motives behind a PC thread..  your whole point to the thread was to make people stop using the word jap.   It is pitiful... I would imagine that  you are one of the few japannese that is offended in the world... your replies range from pleading and whining to obscene vehemence..  you are coming unglued over this...  most of the words you tell me I don't type can't be typed on this board...  as for "germ"  hey... the term get's used a lot here.

I will continue to type what I want within the boundries of this BB... in fact... I might type "jap" a lot more since I know it irritates someone as pissy as you... you may type honky or okie or whitey or whatever.   Maybe there will be some half white guy who get's all worked up.  I make not justifications for what I say.   I use words to express what I mean...   It doesn't matter if I am doing it badly or not getting my point accross... only that I have the freedom to express myself.

MT.. the tuskagee airmen should not have been discriminated against nor should any black men... I believe most discrimination was unconstitutional.   They should have had the SAME rights to test for jobs as anyone else.

lazs

[mietla]

Originally posted by Sixpence
   Talk about interpretation.  

Interpretation? of what ? elaborate please.

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by mietla
Interpretation? of what ? elaborate please.

Lol, you tell me where the constitution tells you you have a right to be racist, then I will elaborate.

[mietla]

Originally posted by Sixpence
Lol, you tell me where the constitution tells you you have a right to be racist, then I will elaborate.

Constitution binds the government, not me.