Author Topic: So that's what Islam is to these guys, eh..  (Read 5189 times)

Offline Dowding

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So that's what Islam is to these guys, eh..
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2004, 10:07:40 AM »
So Gunslinger, Iraq is not about humanitarian concerns over the fate of the Iraqi people under the rule of Saddam? That would have been taking the moral high ground, I'm afraid. Afterall, we rightfully labelled Saddam a tyrant.

So... first it wasn't about WMD. Now it's not about the fate of humanity. Tell me, exactly why did we invade?
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2004, 10:09:39 AM »
Dowding,

I don't think anyone here is really disagreeing with you.

However, I think a few, like myself, are wondering about the total absence of condemnation from the civilized, peace loving Mullahs, clerics and Islamic governments. Those are indeed supposed to be "civilized" people and "nation states".

Where are those voices?

Where are the voices of those who, in some threads just a bit down the page, were vociferously castigating the US soldiers "guilty of prisoner abuse" and the US itself for allowing that abuse to happen?

Where are those voices?
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Offline Westy

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So that's what Islam is to these guys, eh..
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2004, 10:16:41 AM »
"...total absence of condemnation from the civilized, peace loving Mullahs, clerics and Islamic governments. Those are indeed supposed to be "civilized" people and "nation states....Where are those voices?"


Toad  go to Google news, CNN, Reuters and the BBC and you will see the news about Arabs being repulsed and horrified at what happened.  

 Here.  I'll help.......


 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3706763.stm

 Just a reminder - there is a significant difference in time between the continental US and the Middle East.  So last night when several people were all indignant about not seeing any negative Arab response to this hideous murder bear in mind that it was midnight-3am over there.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2004, 10:19:36 AM by Westy »

Offline Toad

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So that's what Islam is to these guys, eh..
« Reply #78 on: May 12, 2004, 10:25:28 AM »
Westy, I read the BBC and Reuters stories on it.

Note in both cases they have some comments from "the man on the street" and that this commentary is pretty equally divided saying "Bad thing" and "Americans deserve it". In short, it's a split decision from the man on the street.

I have yet to find a comment from a leading Mullah or Islamic Cleric in any Islamic country condemning this action. Where's the speech from the Mosque telling the faithful that this is an unconscionable act? No news of that....... and there probably won't be.

Where is the Fatwah isssued by some major Islamic cleric saying these people are an abomination in the eyes of Allah? Saying that they should be turned in by the faithful and punished?

Where is the condemnation by the government of any Islamic state saying these people are an embarassment to Muslims everywhere?

Got a link for any of those?

I've seen the mixed message from the "man on the Arab street". That's all that's out there as far as I know.

Nothing from the religious leaders of Islam or the "civilized" governments of the Arab world.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Dowding

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So that's what Islam is to these guys, eh..
« Reply #79 on: May 12, 2004, 10:26:51 AM »
Are you really surprised people hold a civilised Western democracy to a higher degree of scrutiny than a bunch of criminals?

About the Muslim voices - perhaps they go unreported. They may have been slow in the past, but the UK Council of Muslim Clerics recently condemned the use of Mosques to incite religious intolerance. Just one example, I'm sure there are more.
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Offline Westy

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« Reply #80 on: May 12, 2004, 10:33:07 AM »
Well we've gone from from total absence of outrage to mixed messages by the man on the street and now you're looking for specific fatwahs?   And if found I predict the next reply would to that you needed to see a specific condemnation from Shiek Johndoesalami or Mullah Ohmyachingbakk.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #81 on: May 12, 2004, 10:37:07 AM »
I think if any Muslim Cleric or government spoke out against this beheading it'd be front page news on every paper in the world.

I believe you realize this as well.

The idea that say...... the government of Iran spoke out against the beheading and it just didn't make CNN is laughable isn't it?

The idea that say...... the Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani in Iraq condemned these killers and issued a Fatwah against them would go unreported by the BBC is also laughable, isn't it?

The idea that the Grand Ayatollahs of the three greatest mosques in Islam, the Grand Mosque in Mecca, the Mosque of the Prophet in Medina, and al-Aqsa in Jerusalem all condemned these killers would go unreported in the world press is also laughable, no?

Where is any condemnation other than the decidedly mixed opinion from the "muslim on the street"?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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So that's what Islam is to these guys, eh..
« Reply #82 on: May 12, 2004, 10:39:36 AM »
Is that just a dodge, Westy?

In the US threads, there were outcries and demands for apologies from the US government, Bush, firing of Rumsfeld, etc.

There was essentially universal condemnation of the abuse by the US "man in the street".

I haven't asked to be shown anything from the "muslim in the street" in the world press in any of my posts.

I want to see the "officaldom" of Islam condemn this act.

You can't find it and you won't. I think we all know why and it isn't because it's going unreported.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #83 on: May 12, 2004, 10:40:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy
"...total absence of condemnation from the civilized, peace loving Mullahs, clerics and Islamic governments. Those are indeed supposed to be "civilized" people and "nation states....Where are those voices?"



See any "muslim in the street" there?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Lizking

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« Reply #84 on: May 12, 2004, 10:42:36 AM »
Actually, it is, if you look at Fox news they list some.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #85 on: May 12, 2004, 10:42:37 AM »
please stop quoting neo-dowling, your ruining my ignore.

or at least just stick to the salient points.  oh wait....
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Offline muckmaw

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« Reply #86 on: May 12, 2004, 10:45:40 AM »
I am so tempted to say, pack it up, fug these savages and let's bring the boys home. It ain't worth it. If these people want to live like animals, let them. But I realize if we don't fight them in Iraq, they'll be cutting the heads off people in my neighborhood soon enough.


Arab Media Play Down, Ignore Beheading

2 hours, 12 minutes ago  

By ZEINA KARAM, Associated Press Writer

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Arab media reacted cautiously Wednesday to the videotaped beheading of an American civilian by Islamic militants in Iraq (news - web sites), with some newspapers conspicuously playing it down or even ignoring it.

The biggest pan-Arab satellite television channels broadcast an edited version of the gruesome video, not showing the actual killing of Nick Berg, 26, of West Chester, Pa., a Philadelphia suburb. The businessman was abducted in April.


In one of the most explicit displays, Kuwait's Al-Siyassah daily ran a photo of a masked militant holding up Berg's severed head.


The video of the execution was released on the Internet too late for some Middle East newspaper columnists to react to it. The killing, attributed to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's group, appalled many Arabs.


Some opinion-makers condemned the killing.


"This shows how base and vile those who wear the robe of Islam have become," said Abdullah Sahar, a Kuwait University political scientist.


Some said it surpassed the American military's abuse of Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison, which has been the top story for the past 10 days in the Middle East.


"We were winning international sympathy because of what happened at Abu Ghraib, but they come and waste it all," said Abdullah Sahar, a Kuwait University political scientist, said of the Islamic militants responsible.


In the video, the masked militants said they were taking revenge on Berg because of the abuses at the Baghdad prison.


Mustafa Bakri, editor of Al-Osboa weekly newspaper in Egypt, said Berg's death will only hurt efforts to expose American offenses against Iraqis.


"Such revenge is rejected," Bakri said of the execution. "The American administration will make use of such crimes just to cover their real crimes against Iraqis."


Bakri spoke as he took part in a Cairo demonstration by about 50 Egyptian journalists and lawyers against American human rights abuses in Iraq.


Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya, the big two satellite networks, aired carefully edited versions of the video. In Al-Arabiya's edit, a militant is seen drawing a knife and jerking Berg's body to one side. The rest is not shown.


"The news story itself is strong enough," said Jihad Ballout, spokesman for Qatar-based Al-Jazeera. "To show the actual beheading is out of the realm of decency."


Lebanon's private Al Hayat-LBC station led its bulletins Wednesday with the video. Its news presenter said: "We apologize to our viewers for not showing the entire tape because of the ugliness of the scene."


Kuwait state television broadcast the news of the execution late Tuesday but not the video.


Iraqi newspapers reported nothing about the killing, although it may have broken to late for them.

   



Egypt's leading daily, Al-Ahram, ignored the beheading Wednesday. Two other major pro-government newspapers ran news agency reports on their inside pages, without photos.

An Al-Ahram editor, Ahmed Reda, said the news came too late Tuesday night for the paper to confirm the video's authenticity with the U.S. government.

Newspapers in Syria, where the government controls the press tightly, did not report it at all.

A professor of journalism at the American University in Cairo, Hussein Amin, said the handling of the story by Egypt's pro-government papers was political and appropriate.

"I think that the government does not want to show this on the front page as a main item because it shows a very poor — poor is not the proper word; disgusting maybe is the better word — example of revenge," Amin said. "There is also the threat that it could be happening to other Americans. If they put it on the front page, (it could be seen as) they are favoring this kind of action."

Jordanian newspapers, state television and radio reported Berg's killing, but without commentary.

Most Lebanese newspapers, such as the left-wing As-Safir, published the report and a photograph of Berg sitting in front of the militants. As-Safir ran the headline: "Al-Zarqawi slaughters an American to avenge Iraqi prisoners."

In many Arab newspapers, the beheading received less display than the news of America's imposing sanctions on Syria and the killing of six Israeli soldiers in Gaza City.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #87 on: May 12, 2004, 10:47:52 AM »
You still seem to be making the point that Muslims are somehow bound to a hierarchy in a similar way to how a US soldier is accountable to his superiors. That is senseless.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2004, 10:51:45 AM »
I just hope Nicks sacrifice wakes up the pan arab world to the very real threat they face of annihilation.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Toad

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« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2004, 10:52:10 AM »
If you're talking to me, that's not my point.

I'm saying that there ARE...... well, supposed to be........ "civilized" or "responsible" or "peace-loving" leaders of Islam, both religious and secular leaders.

Yet NONE, as in NONE of these supposedly "civilized" or "responsible" or "peace-loving" leaders has publicly spoken out to condemn this act.

It's not because the world media has ignored such pronouncements.

It's because they aren't being made.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2004, 11:00:08 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!