Author Topic: So that's what Islam is to these guys, eh.. (Read 5192 times)

Sixpence · « **Reply #90 on:** May 12, 2004, 10:53:55 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
Westy, I read the BBC and Reuters stories on it.

Note in both cases they have some comments from "the man on the street" and that this commentary is pretty equally divided saying "Bad thing" and "Americans deserve it". In short, it's a split decision from the man on the street.

I have yet to find a comment from a leading Mullah or Islamic Cleric in any Islamic country condemning this action. Where's the speech from the Mosque telling the faithful that this is an unconscionable act? No news of that....... and there probably won't be.

Where is the Fatwah isssued by some major Islamic cleric saying these people are an abomination in the eyes of Allah? Saying that they should be turned in by the faithful and punished?

Where is the condemnation by the government of any Islamic state saying these people are an embarassment to Muslims everywhere?

Got a link for any of those?

I've seen the mixed message from the "man on the Arab street". That's all that's out there as far as I know.

Nothing from the religious leaders of Islam or the "civilized" governments of the Arab world.

Well, on one hand people say the majority embrace us and want us there, then you show me this. Kind of contradicts that whole thought , no? We got saddam, we got his sons, their WMD are gone, so why are we there if they don't want us there? It's time to face facts, the majority don't like us, and would just as soon kill us than look at us. We got what we came for, let's go home. Rebuild Iraq, pffft, they got plenty of wealth in oil, let them rebuild it themselves. As a matter of fact I think they owe us for damages.

ravells · « **Reply #91 on:** May 12, 2004, 10:55:13 AM »

I'm with Toad on this. I would like to see Arab leaders condemning the killing. The silence has been deafening. Arab leaders should be leading by example. I get the impression that they are sitting on the fence.

Dowding, I appreciate those Arab leaders may not be in control of the people who carried out the killing, but nobody is asking them to apologise or carry out investigations. A simple condemnation of the action would do.

Ravs

Toad · « **Reply #92 on:** May 12, 2004, 10:58:04 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Sixpence
the majority don't like us, and would just as soon kill us than look at us.

I think you're quite wrong there. There've been some links on this bbs to Iraqi blogs that state the opposite. But then, who'd believe that right? No doubt a CIA blog operation.

I am in receipt of email from two different special forces operatives that say the majority is glad to have us. One says that the locals regard the al-Sadr militia in much the same way US citizens viewed the Mafia in the '20's. Just a bunch of protection racket crooks that prey upon the common citizens.

But that's all propaganda too. Except, if you look, you can find other sources saying the same thing.

Toad · « **Reply #93 on:** May 12, 2004, 10:59:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by ravells
Dowding, I appreciate those Arab leaders may not be in control of the people who carried out the killing, but nobody is asking them to apologise or carry out investigations. A simple condemnation of the action would do.

Ravs

Thanks, Ravs.

Much better said than I could do at present.

Sixpence · « **Reply #94 on:** May 12, 2004, 10:59:03 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
I think you're quite wrong there. There've been some links on this bbs to Iraqi blogs that state the opposite. But then, who'd believe that right? No doubt a CIA blog operation.

I am in receipt of email from two different special forces operatives that say the majority is glad to have us. One says that the locals regard the al-Sadr militia in much the same way US citizens viewed the Mafia in the '20's. Just a bunch of protection racket crooks that prey upon the common citizens.

But that's all propaganda too. Except, if you look, you can find other sources saying the same thing.

Well, make up your mind

Toad · « **Reply #95 on:** May 12, 2004, 11:01:11 AM »

When did I say otherwise?

Are you confusing me with someone else?

Westy · « **Reply #96 on:** May 12, 2004, 11:02:25 AM »

"I think if any Muslim Cleric or government spoke out against this beheading it'd be front page news on every paper in the world. I believe you realize this as well."

Sure it would make the news. Just as would it would if Jesse Jackson, Jerry Falwell or the Pope condemned the murder too. They haven't either. So should I read into the absence of the same from them that they silently condone what the terrorists did too?

Sixpence · « **Reply #97 on:** May 12, 2004, 11:04:25 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
When did I say otherwise?

Are you confusing me with someone else?

I think if any Muslim Cleric or government spoke out against this beheading it'd be front page news on every paper in the world. I believe you realize this as well. The idea that say...... the government of Iran spoke out against the beheading and it just didn't make CNN is laughable isn't it? The idea that say...... the Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani in Iraq condemned these killers and issued a Fatwah against them would go unreported by the BBC is also laughable, isn't it? The idea that the Grand Ayatollahs of the three greatest mosques in Islam, the Grand Mosque in Mecca, the Mosque of the Prophet in Medina, and al-Aqsa in Jerusalem all condemned these killers would go unreported in the world press is also laughable, no? Where is any condemnation other than the decidedly mixed opinion from the "muslim on the street"?

That seems to say "they all hate us", correct me if I am wrong. I don't know how else to take that.

Toad · « **Reply #98 on:** May 12, 2004, 11:04:42 AM »

Jeez, Westy........ you're down to that? What a reach.

Toad · « **Reply #99 on:** May 12, 2004, 11:06:29 AM »

Six,

It's not saying "they all hate us". There are "man in the street" inteviews that condemn this act from many Islamic countries.

What you don't see is a leader of the religion or of one of the governments stepping up and condemning it.

What do YOU make of that?

Sixpence · « **Reply #100 on:** May 12, 2004, 11:09:20 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
Six,

It's not saying "they all hate us". There are "man in the street" inteviews that condemn this act from many Islamic countries.

What you don't see is a leader of the religion or of one of the governments stepping up and condemning it.

What do YOU make of that?

That they don't like us. I don't know how else to put it. It has been that way for centuries.

Toad · « **Reply #101 on:** May 12, 2004, 11:09:43 AM »

I think there's more to it than that.

Monk · « **Reply #102 on:** May 12, 2004, 11:19:18 AM »

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In one of the most explicit displays, Kuwait's Al-Siyassah daily ran a photo of a masked militant holding up Berg's severed head.

What really disgusts me, is the same display shown on a on a well know German newspaper.

muckmaw · « **Reply #103 on:** May 12, 2004, 11:29:23 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Westy
"I think if any Muslim Cleric or government spoke out against this beheading it'd be front page news on every paper in the world. I believe you realize this as well."

Sure it would make the news. Just as would it would if Jesse Jackson, Jerry Falwell or the Pope condemned the murder too. They haven't either. So should I read into the absence of the same from them that they silently condone what the terrorists did too?

If the people cutting the victums head off did it while shouting, 'For the Glory of Christ" then I would expect a statement of condemnation from the church.

In this case, I expect said condemnation from the leaders of Islam, in who's name this man was publicly butchered.

Sixpence · « **Reply #104 on:** May 12, 2004, 11:38:46 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
I think there's more to it than that.

Oh, there is alot more to it than that. Look, one of our main problems in the middle east is trust, they do not trust us. And they have good reasons, over the years past we(our government)(along with many aother governments) have tried to gain some kind of control over the area(puppet governments, etc.) Even if you want to argue that, that is the perception of arabs, so I think we can at least agree on the perception part.

Now all that is in the past, and that is a legit argument, we are here and now. But trust is not something you turn off and on, it is an emotion, and must be earned. Now I felt we were doing a good job on gaining trust, but recent events have thrown that all away. And I agree that it may have been a few that did it, but that's not the way they see it, and that is what is more important, the way they see it, it's their trust we need. I said it before, the longer we are there, the more anti-American sentiment will build, and to Bush's credit, he is sticking to his guns and holding fast to the June 30th deadline. We got what we came for, we got saddam, we got his sons, we cleared out the WMD. If they don't want us there I have no problem bringing the boys home, let them kill each other, not us.