HispanosVsMausers

[Sn1p3r]

I really think it is just a matter of convergence.  I used to stagger my convergence on all my planes ... It took forever to get enough hits on a plane to down it.  I then read somewhere that the .50's on the pony were set to ~300 (all of them) so I tried that.  The difference was amazing .. shorter bursts and pieces came flying off.  Sure it makes you get in closer for the kill, but when 6 .50's or 4 .20mm or whatever all hit in the same spot on an aircraft, you can imagine the amount of damage.  Can anyone else back this up?  I know it has made a difference for me.

-Sn1p3r

[Lephturn]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned so far...

The F4U is FAR tougher than the FW isn't it?  The Hog is one of the toughest birds in the air, so it should be harder to bring it down.

RAM, unless you don't fire your MG's you just can't be sure what you hit with.  No matter what I fly, I only use one trigger.  In my F4U-1D this is fine, 6x.50, but in the FW I simply map my trigger to Fire2 and only use the cannons.  I'll use the F key on the keyboard if I need to and use MG for ranging or scaring a con.  Use only the cannons, trust me, you'll be more lethal.  The only plane where I'll use both at the same time is in the P38 where they are all nose mounted and have similar trajectories.

Also... just because you HEARD one ping means nothing.  If he nailed you with 15 shells in a second, that very well may all get to your FE at the same time and all you hear is one ping.  It's just a noise to let you know you have been hit, not a counter that tells you how many shells you took remember.

Yes, if you had Hispano's you would have likely killed him, but not for the reasons you think IMHO.  You would have gotten him with Hispano's because you had guns with a better trajectory and you wouldn't be confusing the issue with MG fire.

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
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"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
 - Steve Earl

[RAM]

   

Originally posted by Vermillion:

 Come on RAM       I really hope your not starting to believe your own propaganda. The P-51, Fw190, and the F4U all fly in the same manner, and should be flown with the same style.

Disagree, Verm     I fly Fw190. I flew a lot P51. Hole different planes. You can fly a P51 the way you fy a Fw190, but you'll NEVER be able to fly a fw190 the way you CAN fly P51.And I talk about good flying, not suicide turning fights    
A P51 using those WONDERFUL flaps ,can win angles on enemy planes when needed, thing that you'd NEVER be able to do in a Fw190. so you can put a longer burst on target.

Fw190 lives for and because the snapshot, verm. Its the truth. Maybe A5 will change that, but A8 cant turn well without losing advantage FAST. So winnin an angle is difficult, to say the least.

P51 can drop one notch of flaps, maybe 2, for ,say 5 seconds without losing too much E. The better turning allowes you to win the angle on a con and put a LONG and STEADY burst on the enemy. Try it. I did it a lot with it and it works GREAT. Of course now I really miss those flaps in Fw190    

I agree,though in that 20mm MG151 packs way more punch than 12.7mm. But it packs WAY less punch than Hispano, and that is why I keep on asking why. Hispano AP rounds werent ,by far, that good versus planes...and HE rounds were strange until too late in the war.
German 20mm were used effectively against bombers...so guess what they could do against fighters.

Lephturn, thanks for the tip. I'll try it...but I keep on thinking that 75% pings on the Hog were 20mm. They hit with separation, what means WING armament hits. and as I said before, the path followed by the con made more possible wing hits than cowling ones.

I'll grab a Hawg again tonight and give it a try. It has been a long time since I flew it on AA duties

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-09-2000).]

[RAM]

ooops...double post  

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-09-2000).]

[-lazs-]

pongo... u are missing my point.   "Feel" is not good enough.   I "feel" one way and you another...We need to test.   In the "other" sim it is done all the time by dedicated players.   I have done hours of testing myself.  Others have done a lot more.

Here's the deal... I will spend the hrs with you and test the guns with you if you like.   It is done something like this.... From ded 6 at two hundred yards you fire very short (1/2 sec or less) bursts at my ac and then wait for the damage to take effect.   When I go down we figure how many rounds it took.   do this several times and try other combinations until we get some idea of the leathiality of each type of armement.  
lazs

[Pongo]

lazs
Thanks for your reply..
How can we be sure how many hit? Or if they were the HE ones or the AP ones or the duel role ones?
I agree that some way to reverse engineer thier relative lethality in AH would be of some value, But their effeciveness in WW2 is still subjective...
I dont think anyone here even Pyro needs to be conviced that the HS is signifigantly more lethal then the 151 or any other cannon here. I believe that it is intended to be more lethal in the game in particulare as regards its signifigant penetration and long range accuracy advantage.  The issue is if there is historical precident for the LEVEL of superioriy that is evident in the game.

So discussions that I am involved in concerning this issue will probably be frustrating to people who want to boil the numbers and put a check mark beside the mathamatical proofs.

Pyro has acknoledged that something is wrong. We all know that Pyro and HT are basing the capabilities of these cannons on well documented and uncontested numbers.
But rangefinders, 10% gunnery, lack of atmoshpheric interference, lack of variance between guns and ammo of the same type or a small piece of each of the above are giving the HS M2 the ability to reach out with unrealisic leathality in comparison to the other very effecitve guns in the game.

Maybe testing could establish this either way.. Not in any way I can think of though..

[CavemanJ]

maybe there's a minute bug somewhere making the hispanos super guns.  There was the double gravity on the bullets.

And the tiffie is another 1 pass wonder tank killer.  Had one wipe me out in 1 pass earlier today.  And it wasn't a high angle shot.  I had the barrel elevated to the max to try and bring the coax to bear (where's the external mg on top of the turret???) and I had to depress it quite a bit to hit the tiffie.

[Fatty]

For what it's worth, it's hardly an accurate statistical measurement, but I did take out a number of panzers trying out the 190 last night.  It's a pretty small (near irrelevant) sampling, but it seemed pretty effective.

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Fatty
Fat Drunk Bastards
"I ain't givin none of you bastards a hug who ain't bought me at least 6 beers."

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
...but I heard ONE ping, and engine collapsed...

One ping on me and byebye engine...


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-08-2000).]

Ram, is it possible you STILL haven't figured this out yet?

As Lephturn pointed out, yet AGAIN, hearing one ping means nothing.

Quite a whild ago, back when I flew the -1C I nailed your -109 at about 250 yds. You immediately started the "one ping whine". If you recall, I told you over common that on MY FE I saw about 25-30 hit sprites all in your cockpit/center section area. You gave me such a beautiful planform shot I think every round hit.

ONE PING on the dying man's FE is MEANINGLESS. You just don't know how many rounds hit you.

Get used to it. Accept it. It's NOT one hit.

[RAM]

Yep toad I recall that one..but that one I died in the kaboom. So I figured that when you die you hear only a few pings

Didnt knew that when flying the "one ping" may mean more than that.

Anyway I am sure that was only one hit. why?   because I told it on #1 and the guy accepted that he had hit me only with one ping.

  simple isnt it?  

[Maniac]

RAM,

I flew the 190 yesterday an couple a sorties, and i did not find it hard to kill wiht once you had got your guns on target at all.

Heres an tip   keep the trigger squezed until u see parts come flyin off the enemy plane, and do not only lob 2-3 cannon shells on target expecting it to go boom.

Regards.


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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-


   
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Maniac:
RAM,

Heres an tip   keep the trigger squezed until u see parts come flyin off the enemy plane, and do not only lob 2-3 cannon shells on target expecting it to go boom.

Regards.

Well Maniac...thats my point. 2-3 Mauser rounds on a fighter in WWII would have produced Serious, if not lethal, Damage!!! that high explosiver round was terrific!
If I go with a 20mm I EXPECT to do HARD damage on snapshots!. in Hispano that is true, one ping is equal to structure damage,for sure. In Mausers it isnt and I cant accept it! AP rounds on HIspano went through the plane making a hole moe or less big. 20mm rounds on Mausers EXPLODED and made TERRIFIC damage. Not to talk about incendiary rounds.

Pyro please, again, can you post here the type of ammo simulated in AH?. If in HS it is HE I can understand it (But then I must disagree with the 20mm penetration on tanks). IF it is AP then the damage is ridiculous, IMHO.

Thanks in advance

[-lazs-]

pongo... u can't be absolutely sure how many hit but at 200 yards ded 6 with two different people testing you will be able to get a very good "relative: feel.  which brings us full circle.... I want to know how each gun does against the other in the game, leathiality wise.   Mostly all I have heard on here is "my guns are XXX times less effective than the other guys".... Lets find out just what advantage or disadvantage each gunset is operating with in the "game".   Lets find out what the ratio is or lets just all say that we don't know.  

I don't know what the loadout for 151's are in the game.  Is it AP/HE mix?  What ratio? Can you set it?

I do not believe that anyone has comprehensive or otherwise, data on how many hits it took from what what gun to down what plane in WWII much less comparrisons against the same planes.  I certainly think that saying AP rounds are overkill and less effective against fighters than HE is incorrect though.
lazs

[Maniac]

RAM,

U missed my point  

The FW cannons _are_ lethal! alot more lethal then my 50s anyway...

Check your conv setting and dont count the number of hits you make on target, djust spray till it goes boom or some critical part falls of.

Oh why dont we go in to the TA and i will fly completly level at 300 yds ahead of u and then you can test the cannon?

Regards.

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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-


   
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/

[Pongo]

Lazs
I dont know what the mix of rounds is. But the 20mm mine shells would be next to useless against a tank, and the 20mm AP shells would be next to useless against a bomber. As our guns are good for both roles in the same sorie They must have a mix of shells.... The germans flew a mix of shells, by 1945 the allies were too apperantly. I have a picture of the HS being loaded on a Spit IX in 1945 and it is definatly a mix of ammo going in.
So my point was..if the rounds are mixed(which is historical for the germans at least) then how do we establish which type of round was effective? Does it matter?

My opinion on the relative effectivness of AP vs HE for air to air is based on the direction that such weapons evolved in the post war. I would be interested in any refrence that indicates that AP is deemed supperior.