Author Topic: I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)  (Read 4508 times)

Offline SOB

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I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2001, 07:05:00 AM »
You mentioned modelling a plane's strengths without modelling any of it's weaknesses...I asked you to point out what weaknesses weren't modelled on the Niki that were modelled on other AH aircraft.  Perhaps you should read my post again, it had nothing to do with the Chog, just your random statement about the Niki without any facts to back it up.

 
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Well, that's obviously the difference between us SOB ... I happen to care about all of the AH aircraft. I have my favourites, sure, but I like to see a balanced arena.

That's nice...it's good to see that you can take words out of context, and make up your own story.  My question was about the Niki...which RAM didn't address at all.  Basically, his post had nothing to do with what I asked, despite being formed as a reply to me.  My interest doesn't lie in LuftWaffle planes, therefore someone else (enter RAM) can worry about folks throwing out random snippets of rubbish about the planes he chooses to fly.


SOB

Ahh, and good show, you can also use the score page!  You should have looked back further, and you would have had even more ammunition for whatever point you were trying to make with your last sentence...I've been flying the Niki almost exclusively since Tour 7.  If you could check this tour's stats, you'd also notice that I've had only about 3 sorties in the Niki, instead favoring the Hellcat, but don't worry...I'll still be flying the Niki too!

Three Times One Minus One.  Dayum!

Offline gatt

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I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)
« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2001, 07:25:00 AM »
 
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Hmm, like a certain C.205 driver I recently met in the MA GAT?

Dang! During my only NIKI ride I get Jekyll, I'm definitely not lucky   During certain TOD everyone can lose his style, eh?  

BTW, I'm flying the C.205 and the Spitfire IX, so no worry to be perked for me  

[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 01-10-2001).]
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Westy

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I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)
« Reply #77 on: January 10, 2001, 07:52:00 AM »
"Westy....obviously you didn't comprehend what I typed...I was equating popular with unbalancing."

 I comprehended your post quite well. Perhaps you had a communication problem and used the wrong word to denote what you were trying to convey. Neither word even remotely means the same as the other. If you meant to use the word 'unbalancing' then use it.  You used the word 'popular' which meaning has become a bone of contention between those who see what Pyros'  is trying to do and those who are reacting as if they were having thier first born taken from them.

 -Westy

Offline Mayhem

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I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)
« Reply #78 on: January 10, 2001, 08:17:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by Westy:
"Westy....obviously you didn't comprehend what I typed...I was equating popular with unbalancing."

 I comprehended your post quite well. Perhaps you had a communication problem and used the wrong word to denote what you were trying to convey. Neither word even remotely means the same as the other. If you meant to use the word 'unbalancing' then use it.  You used the word 'popular' which meaning has become a bone of contention between those who see what Pyros'  is trying to do and those who are reacting as if they were having thier first born taken from them.

 -Westy


Na westy some of us are just tired of hearing every one cry about the Chog then it will be the n1k2 then the spit then the 205 and 202 and then......

realsitically its a bunch of people that got thier tulips kicked buy it and they want it gone so the can move on to the next plane untill the only aircraft is left is the ones that they can beet and the ones they can fly. same crap diffrent game. hell the big week message boards where 40times more cival and no one felt the had to be an arse to get thier point across. Now its just one big quake studmuffin fest with every one trying to pump thier delf worth. I got an Idea how about we limit the plane set to one muti perposed fighter then mabey people would stop squeaking about the plane set. personally I want more planes not less. Now Me262's would unballance the game. p51h nor I doubt does the chog not realistically. b29 might I think the lanc does from time to time but its no biggy. you will always have a more popular aircraft and that plane will always score more kills. Soons as the idiots get the chog banned or perked out of existance they will put another plane on the choping block and force pyro into a position he has no choice but to do soemthing. I hate being an arse whole but iam so tired of people crying about a plane trying to get it stomped out jsut becuase it kicked their but and they can't learn to beet it so tey don't feel good about themselves anymore.

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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
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[This message has been edited by Mayhem (edited 01-10-2001).]
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Pepino

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I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)
« Reply #79 on: January 10, 2001, 08:46:00 AM »
Ripsnort,

Not that perking any plane will change that, but at least the HO only guy will have (generally speaking) a much shorter and unpleasant life without the CHog. For me, that's enough. The good, dedicated F4U pilots will still be flying the 1-D. My money is in Torque being as lethal as usual. HO dweebs (I mean with this the ones that exclusively use HO as attack tactic) will probably switch to Typhoons or even P-47's. Let's see how they fare in them. If they switch to N1K2....well hehehe. Hopefully, in the long run they will realise that HO is not the only, let alone the best, merge manouver. IMHO, HO yields too much reward in the F4U-1C.

Again, I am talking without knowing what will be the system's actual outcome, but I think it's worth to give it a try.

Mayhem, I do fly 190's, N1K2, Pony's, etc. I can get killed quite proficiently in any of those planes.   And C-Hogs. IMHO, F4U series are one of the coolest planes of the whole WWII (and P-38's too). I try not to hate anything, and, if I am to hate something in this game this would be the Quakeboys whose only goal is to see that big orange fireball as soon as possible, with as little time and work in the process of getting it as possible. But, even this ones I don't hate, for I don't consider them part of the game. They are just a nuisance. Just like AI guns. Only with a little less I.

Cheers,

Pepe.

Offline TRiMmer

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I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)
« Reply #80 on: January 10, 2001, 08:53:00 AM »
Well, after reading this whole thing, all I can say is "wow"...hehe.  IMHO, the 1C is as good a plane to test the implementation of the perk system as we currently have, obviously there are caveats assosciated with anything new and untested.  The 1D is available to those that are truely interested in flying the hog, and the "one ping wonder" will be reined in, to the rejoicing of many, I am sure.  I think we should look at this as a great way to test the impact of the perk system, and grab a cold beer to watch the fun.  The sky is not falling, yet.  

Cheers,

TRiM

Offline AKDejaVu

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I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)
« Reply #81 on: January 10, 2001, 09:00:00 AM »
I disagree TRIM.  The perk system was a way to introduce newer better aircraft to the arena, not remove current planes from the lineup.

It doesn't tell us what happens when the real super-performers enter in.

AKDejaVu

Offline BigGun

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I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)
« Reply #82 on: January 10, 2001, 10:46:00 AM »
Westy...to say I didn't use the word unbalancing is incorrect. If you reread the original post it says

"the Chog (or any other plane that is popular) is considered very unbalancing"

This statement does have some sense of equating popular with unbalancing.

Offline Gnappo

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I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)
« Reply #83 on: January 10, 2001, 11:00:00 AM »
ummm... all planes are perked: 30$ a month  

Gnappo - 1° Gruppo Caccia "Asso di Bastoni"

[This message has been edited by Gnappo (edited 01-10-2001).]

Jay_76

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I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)
« Reply #84 on: January 12, 2001, 12:51:00 PM »
Deliberate obtuseness be damned.

Here's the situation.  Try reading it slowly and aloud to yourself; if you get lost, start over from the top:
  • Chog immensely popular.  (Being flown very often.)
  • More often used, lowers the ENY value.
  • Value drops significantly lower than its performance-twin, the Dhog.  
  • Chog gets 20% of kills in Tour 12.

Here's the (obviously) confusing part-

Rather than lowering the ENY value even LOWER (and making people who kill Chog's run away with perk points, while depriving chog pilots of perk points) you perk the Chog.

RESULT-
Pilots who've favored Chogs must fly other craft to gain perks, to get their favorite plane.

PLEASE NOTE this doesn't mean they must fly only ONE other craft.  The HTC are betting that, chances are, they'll spread into the top 6-7 favorite planes of the arena, raising the % of kills for those 6-7 others, and stalling the chog kills until (note, UNTIL) Chog pilots get enough perks to start their cursed ways once more. Then they'll be in their glee, able to fly their security blanket once more, and the kills scored will represent a more balances, variable arena.

Baha! You're wrong you newby anti-american (insert further slurs and invective here) jerk! Get over your own wussiness and take me HO in my Chog while I get the chance! We both know pilots will switch to the next unperked uberplane!

Bull.  Market dynamics like supply and demand (let alone evolution theory) will show that's badly thought out, and relies more on scare tactics than truth, time and time again.  Lowering the relative value of the Chog didn't work, so they're raising the COST of it.  The people who're forced out of the chog won't permanently relocate to a new plane, they'll do what it takes to get their plane back, which means either taking their chances with higher value planes (which will yeild higher points to get their chog) or lower value planes (which will perform marginally better in specialized ways, but will not score as many points per kill).

Here's my two projections-

(1) the chog pilots with skill will go for the higher value planes b/c they know they'll do fine in them, and will be able to get their chog faster.  Kills for these planes rise sharply.

(2) those less-able chog pilots will go for the so-called uberplanes and be sorely surprised when they don't perform so uberly (i.e. they'll be killed in a lot of HO's, they'll miss a lot of 20 mm single-shots, and there'll be much whining).  Kills for these planes rise, but only very marginally.

NET RESULT?
Planes at the low end of the kill % spectrum (with the higher value, i.e. ENY rating) will be far closer to the 8-9% that the higher-performance/low value planes are, esp. when they start reaping up the abundant kills to be had from low-skill "uber-"pilots.  The graph generally balances out more to reflect a higher variety of A/c type being flown, and as Chogs become available, they'll gradually rise to between 13-16% of kills by the end of the tour.

This whole scenario depends on the motivation of the Chog pilot-  either they're hot to get back in their plane, or they're going for easy kills and looking for the path of least resistance,

 
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"And following the path of least resistance is what makes a river crooked!" -Utah Philips.

Basically, if all chog pilots are wusses, THEN you'll see the uber-plane cycle start up.  If not (and for the record, I'm betting they're not), you'll see a more balanced arena.  Now, if the chog pilot's wanna prove my bet wrong, go right ahead.

If a newbie can understand it, I dunno how you old hands can't see the wisdom.

WTG Pyro, ingenious solution.

Jay. (AKA JayNewf)


PS> mayhem, check your stats and ideas on Me-262 performance.  Its not such an uberplane: Chuck Yeagar certainly formed an opinion on their performance.  Level flight, gunning the jumo's will be its greatest strength: lets see how it handles turns and climbs, perticularly on takeoff.

[This message has been edited by Jay_76 (edited 01-12-2001).]

Offline Hajo

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I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)
« Reply #85 on: January 12, 2001, 11:50:00 PM »
I'm probably going to get a lot of negative comments on the comments I am about to make,but here goes.  Why should there be perk planes?  In my humble opinion, if this game is played by die hard flight simmers, who want as much reality as possible in FM, damage modeling, lethality of guns etc, why the heck are we going to have an uber plane?  Gee I can hear it now as Bud Anderson landed in england after a 3 kill sortie, " hey Bud, ya did so good today,tomorrow we're going to let you fly a P-51D with higher lethality, and better performance just because ya did so good today!  That folks wasn't reality, the reality of the situation was, Merlins were finicky, Nik pilots never knew when they took off if their "birds" were going to be able to climb to the alt of the incoming B-29s' because of erratic engine performance etc.  also, something else to be considered, we're going to be giving perked planes to people that have flown AH for some time and have acquired the skills to earn such planes.   I surmise that this might have a bad impact on the new player who arrives, gets his head beat in because he is new, and not only is he facing experienced combatants, but experienced combatants with planes the over perform.  This could very easily discourage a "newbie" who is thinking about paying 30 dollars a month to say" gee, this is just great, I have little chance in the first place, and we're passing out uber aircraft to already good particpants, what chance do I have?  In my opinion, this might influence someone who is thinking about signing on, to not do so simply for the fact that he or she is not having fun, and why should I pay 30 dallars a month to be aggrevated?  My opinion for what it's worth (next ta nothing) <G>  My vote is to leave the aircrafts performance as they are, there are ways to engage a C-Hog without getting Ho'd, of course that depends on which aircraft one is flying etc.  Introduce the new aircraft as warranted, and the more modern ones will be most certainly superior in performance because of the advancement of technology during the war.  EXCEPT, for the Me262 or 163.  AW allowed Me262's to be used one day a month, in my opinion it turned the arena into Jet warrior for a day, props only, there are prop planes that haven't been introduced that are a good bit superior to what is in the MA at this time.  Also, good pilots will get their kills in any craft so perking really isn't necessary.

[This message has been edited by Hajo (edited 01-13-2001).]
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lazs

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I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)
« Reply #86 on: January 13, 2001, 12:07:00 AM »
hajo you have stated it pretty well in my opinion.   It's fundamentally flawed.   You may see less of this or that plane but you will also see less players.   And more importantly... less new player than you would with a more rational fairer system.
lazs



Offline Tyro48

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I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)
« Reply #87 on: January 13, 2001, 04:14:00 AM »
Right on Hajo, absolutely no need for " perk planes " if the arena is unbalanced its unbalanced so what, there arent going to be enough people in the " perk " plane to make that big of an impact, and in fact it may be the country with overwhelming numbers that have people in perk planes, so then it would be way unbalanced.

Would you like to play a game of golf with Tiger Woods and find out at the 1st tee you get a 5 stroke penalty just because you wanted to try something new, thats what the newbie is going to see when they come up against the "perked plane" with an experienced AH player.

Just let the game develope as it developes as far as numbers goes, I dont think AH needs a Paul Tagalabue to ride shotgun and make sure we have an "on any given Sunday" environment.

Lets have planes modeled as closely as possible in all aspects, then add the player who may be experienced or may be new and ya take your chances, if ya ask the plane to perform in a way it cant then your going to reap the award, and vica versa.

I want my $30 bucks to give me realism, I dont want HTC trying to balance the playing field,period no ifs no ands no buts!

Offline -tronski-

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I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)
« Reply #88 on: January 13, 2001, 06:36:00 AM »
gee..does that mean I'm not gonna get butchered by C-hogs when attacking a CV wid a TBM anymore...oh no!
Well guess I'll have to contend myself with a quick death at the hands of a Niki when flying a 26/17, or lanc...

-tronski-
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Offline sciflyer

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I hope the first perk plane gets here soon (populations skewed wrong)
« Reply #89 on: January 13, 2001, 08:26:00 AM »
Hajo is right. The more i think about it the more the perk system doesnt make sense. The idea that a newbie like myself not only faces far more experienced combatants, but also in 'superior' planes that he cant fly in, is just ridiculous. Hitech seem like a fairly switched-on bunch of guys, but i wonder if they've really thought about this from a business point of view, ie. attracting new players who want to continue playing, which, like it or not, is what they must do in order to keep going.

The way i see it, all planes must be available to all people (which is undoubtedly an attraction in itself), incentives are needed for the weaker, less attractive (in a combat sense) aircraft to ensure at least some degree of balance, i imagine u'd need a sliding scale from the designated weakest plane to the designated uber-est (heheh good luck with the order   and if at the end of the day u still have a heap of CHogs in the air then so be it, remember its a simulation it will never be perfect, better to have that than no game at all...