so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)

[ramzey]

Originally posted by bikekil
What should be done?

1) Allies should send here our paratroopers.
2) If our paratroopers could be sent here - why any other paratroopers coun d not? DOn't tell me none was avaliable.

its not possible , do you like to drop paras on ruined city? look whats happend in Arnhem. Droping them outside city had not bigger sense. Warsaw was surrounded

Originally posted by bikekil
with soviets in Moscow failed because of LACK OF BRITISH SUPPORT ( i mean political support... because noone there cared much?)

you know brits have not much to say in 1944 and 1945? arent you?

Originally posted by bikekil

That's at least what could be done or done better for your Allies.

here i agree with you

[ramzey]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So basically you wanted the allies to stage a continous series of transport flights across occupied france, nazi germany, and occupied poland and drop these supplies into the middle of one hotly contested city, sorrounded by the germans and cris crossed with house to house fighting. Moreover you want all this done in the late summer of 1944 when the aforementied forces are fighting huge units of the germany army in France and Italy..

Ramzey was right, you must be drunk...

So again, plese feel free to blame Stalin for all this. His army was right across the Vistula and they did nothing but sit there with their thumbs up their butts...

Grun im right in may points;)
Remember Stalin held troops beucose he know noone will push him to help warsaw. Its was not good for him to have non comunistic goverment and not counistic forces in poland.
Allies did not push stalin to help fighting city. Just stand back and watch.
You know allies forces was stop on laba river to let russians "liberate" berlin, it was part of deal

[bikekil]

not exactly Pei,

please rean my first and the lest (the one before this) post.

As i think uprising were just used to server another case. The responsibility lays with Russians (nothing to discuss here) and our Allies.

Germans started a war.. then everything down the road happened because of it. they are overally responsible for the whole mess, but  i don't want to blame them for the fact that they resisted the uprising.

but reading this all points me to the thought i've expressed above.

When, during the whole war was a right time for our allies to help us? not in 39, not in 40, not in 41, not in 42, not in 43, not in 44, not in 45? finally we were sold to commies.

Question is - would it be different if we had no allies at all? Nope

Would any other nation would be happy to have the same Allies we did? I doubt

and that's why we need a memory to remember about it

[bikekil]

so Grun, you must be dumb also

As some flights (mostly Polish and American voleuneer pilots) dropped supplies for the uprisers, it was possible... and it was not 2-3 or 5 flights.

whey wanted to and they did the drop.

so face it - it was possible. Or please quote this part and say it was not possible? can you do it?


As for for paratroopers, Poland wanted to go there. Call me drunked, but i see noting more then a bad will (aka better purpose) in not letting them go.

To use Funked's expression from the other thread... i would not pee on the Allies like we had if they bottom part was on fire.

[Seeker]

Originally posted by ramzey

Rememer, when in london was victory parade, Poles where not invited.

I didn't know that; and it sounds most shabby.

Got any more about it? I'd like to know more.

To Bikekil:

Think the uprising may have been more successfull if it had harnesed the strength of the Ghetto uprising instead of (as we're taught over here) "doing a Russia" and standing back to watch the Germans slaughter the Jews.

Saved the Poles from finishing the job/taking the blame; didn't it?

[thrila]

Seeker a good book about the poles in ww2 is "For your freedom and ours".

[GRUNHERZ]

And what were the loss rates on those flights, 15% maybe 20%?

[fd ski]

Originally posted by thrila
Seeker a good book about the poles in ww2 is "For your freedom and ours".

Indeed, quite an excellent book.

[bikekil]

Will try to find some data about the flights as it's also interesting for me.

As for the Victory Parade, Poles were not invited to participate in London and were not invited to the similar one in Paris as fas as i know

[Angus]

Allright Bikekil, time to straighten out this confusing thread a bit.

1. Enigma.
Code broken by polish mathematicians, however, further accecories were arranged by French spies and Captured hardware. There was not ONE Enigma code, there were many.
Two very important start steps were in 1940, 2 captured engimas from German U boats, 1 sunk in the channel by the RN and divers retrived the Enigma, second damaged by the RAF off the south coast of Iceland and Enigma retrived intact.

2. No Allies.
Get this straight. Hitler wanted Poland, so did Stalin. The Brits and French DECLARED WAR ON GERMANY because of Poland. They could have chosen not to do so.
At the end of the war, Churchill wanted poland to be free, and had a big fight with Stalin about it. However, the US did not back him up on that.

3. No help in the Warshaw uprising.
Well, Parachuting some poles into the fray would definately have increased the bodycount, however was not a sensible move.
Tough. However, bomber command was somewhat involved, Halifaxes (I belive) went on attack missions (or were those the supply drops?) , but it was not much they could do. A forgotten part of history.
The Russians on the other hand could have helped, and even used this to speed up their advance.  After all, they were just a few miles away.  They CHOSE not to.
This is indeed all so sad. Dark and dredful. The Nazis did practically everything they wanted with Poland, and were not stopped, or should I rather say stoppable while at it.
But you should not throw rocks at your allies for it, that is both unintelligent and extremely rude. After all they entered a war that lasted 6 years, and eventually thwarted the Nazi rule.....

[Gunslinger]

Didnt Germany invade Poland by marching in backwords and saying they were leaving?  

I remember learning that in school for some reason  

[fd ski]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Didnt Germany invade Poland by marching in backwords and saying they were leaving?  

I remember learning that in school for some reason  

That would fit very well with rest of your education.

[fd ski]

Panowie,
Dajcie sobie spokój. I tak nikt tutaj tego nie zrozumie i nie przyjmie do wiadomości.

[Nashwan]

The RAF flew 196 supply sorties to Warsaw during the rising, losing 39 heavy bombers in the process. Because of the Russian refusal to allow them to land for refueling, the round trip was close to 2000 miles, and had to be flown from Italy.

[GRUNHERZ]

Wow, almost exactly 20% loss rate. Thats worse than some of the bad bombing missions.