so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)

[fd ski]

The insurgent forces were conspicuously supported by air dropped supplies which commenced on the night of August 4 to 5, 1944. The RAF were to make a total 116 sorties, the Polish Air Force – 97. Losses during these missions were considerable: the RAF lost 19 aircraft, the Poles 15, which was just over 16% and 15% respectively. Plans of there-and-back flights by American Flying Fortresses with stopovers for refuelling and reloading at Soviet bases behind the Eastern Front, were torpedoed by the Soviets.

I remember reading somewhere that almost all crew on those missions were volunteers.

[fd ski]

The Home Army forces of the Warsaw District numbered about 50,000 soldiers of whom 23,000 were combat-ready. Their state of arms on August 1 was as follows: one thousand rifles, 300 automatic pistols, 60 sub-machine guns, 7 machine guns, 35 anti-tank guns and PIAT bazookas, 1700 pistols, and 25,000 grenades. In the course of the fighting further arms were obtained through air drops and by capture from the enemy (including several armoured vehicles). Also, the insurgents’ workshops were busy all the while producing: 300 automatic pistols, 150 flame-throwers, 40,000 grenades, a number of mortars and bazookas, and even an armoured car.

This is against 20,000 later reenforced to 60,000 combat veterans of SS and Wehrmacht.

What were they thinking...

Losses with civilians in 2 months were about 200,000 people.

Germans lost about 15000 dead and missing.

[Ripsnort]

Can't....resist....arrrrrgh! I tried!

[bikekil]

Originally posted by Angus
Allright Bikekil, time to straighten out this confusing thread a bit.
...
2. No Allies.
Get this straight. Hitler wanted Poland, so did Stalin. The Brits and French DECLARED WAR ON GERMANY because of Poland. They could have chosen not to do so.
At the end of the war, Churchill wanted poland to be free, and had a big fight with Stalin about it. However, the US did not back him up on that.
...

So you say that Allies were there to "declare a war" then to sit their bottom parts in a warm places caller "homes"?
You know, funny thing is that as i read it i see that everyone wanted Poland to be free, everyone wanted to help us, everyone wanted us to be happy and so on... pretty darn cool, but what else, other then "good wishes" our allies gave us?
You say "They could have chosen not to do so." - oh great, so we've signed a pact, but our great allies could have decided not to execute it's sentencies? Yeah... that's exactly what happeded...

See, you (by you i mean not you as a person, but our Allies as a whole) were great allies... on the paper... or when you needed to use our men (pilots or regular soldiers... voleuteers). But when we wanted your help, you have your good wishes.

I never said Brits are more "guilty" then Americans or any other nation. Point is ewvferyone had a good wishes and a good reason that prevented him from doing anything.
One of our allies were too weak, others were too far, some othere were too tired and other had different things to take care about.... and at the end of the day we were left for commies because... because Stali wanted so

Of course... our great allies don't wanted to start another war with stalin, so they decided to gave him 40 000000 of slaves in an allied country and seen it as a good deal.

Finally as we were sold to Stalin, we started to be an enemy of our great allies as one of the communistic countries.

Now from the whole picture you should pick one single thing, say "there was a reason" and be happy about it, but truth is - this kind of Allience just sucks.

AK soldiers from the uprising are still living here and there...  i wish you cood face them and say how much Allied goverments wanted to help and how much you wanted Poland to be free after the war.
Do you think they'd like to hear?

[wklink]

There is one more thing to think about.

During the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising the operation Market Garden was going on.  The troops you were thinking about (including a Polish Parachute Brigade) were already tasked out.

I don't know how much time you have spent in the military but

I feel for you but look at it in 1944 terms, not 2004.  Look at the equipment, at the manpower.  It was thought that if Market Garden had succeeded the war would have been over in months.  As it was the drops on Arnhem were the longest in history.  All C-47s were based out of England due to the poor supply and damaged airfields in France.  

That meant that any units flown to Poland (and resupply) would have to fly in, land at a serviceable airfield, refuel and fly out.  That is a pretty risky proposition when you consider you would have to fly across Germany in a C-47.  Some heavy bombers had the range to Poland and back but they weren't designed to carry troops and training Airborne troops to jump out of bombers would have taken weeks to months.  The planning of a full blown airborne division landing would have taken weeks to months.  We would have needed target photos, flak concentrations, landing zones, set up communication and control plans.  Airborne drops are a mess normally, dropping over Poland after flying 1200 miles in the belly of a B-17 or Lancaster, flown by a guy that has never trained to do airborne drops would have been a disaster.

Lets look at the units that could have dropped into Poland.  

1st Polish Parachute Brigade:  Mauled at Arnhem.
1st British Parachute Division:  33% strength after Arnhem (Combat ineffective)
101st US Airborne:  Probably 75% strenght after Market Garden
82nd Airborne:  Probably 80% strength after Market Garden
6th British Parachute: Probably 75% strenght after Normandy

Three other US Airborne divisions were forming in the Summer of 1944 but weren't combat ready.   That meant sending in troops that had seen steady combat since Normandy across Nazi Germany, losing probably 1/4 to enemy fighters and flak to jump into Poland with no hope of resupply.

Any commander that approved that idea would have been relieved.

As for the politics, you are right, the West did abandon Poland.  Roosevelt, obviously in failing health, foolishly trusted Stalin's assurances that the Eastern countries would have free elections after the war.  It was stupid, I agree but at the time Roosevelt wasn't the man he once was.

There was a big fear of the Soviets turning on us.  By 1944 the Brits were stripping AA and other ancillary services to get ground troops to finish the war.  Remember, they had been engaged, on two fronts, for almost 5 years and were bled white.  The US feared trying to fight Germany and Japan at the same time.  Throw the Soviets in there after the war and it would have been daunting.  

I still think we should have pressed Stalin.  In hindsight we realize that the Soviets were exhausted as well.  Stalin hid that well.  If we had pressed it he would have withdrew from most of Eastern Europe.

Hindsight is 20/20

[Wotan]

It’s not that simple. France suffered in World War I more than any other Western combatant. Most of the fighting on the Western Front took place on French soil, and France suffered millions of casualties.

In the 1920’s and 1930’s the French had the largest army in the world. Much of their equipment was good, and they had large resources in their colonies upon which to draw. France did not lack the tools, only the will. The French people dreaded the possibility of another war.

As Germany made noises over the "Polish Corridor" to Danzig, Britain and France made guarantees to the Polish government. In the event of an attack, the West would come to the defense of Poland.

Neither the British nor the French were in a position to back up their guarantees. Hitler correctly anticipated the poor response by the English and French and issued the armed forces to be deployed for Fall Weiß. With the rapid advance of the German attack the Brits and French could not have come to Poland’s aid. Then the Soviets invaded.

Most of the French military doctrine was based on World War 1 and wasn't prepared to start an offensive. The question is could the west have done anything that could have scared Hitler into a different course of action. I don't think so, especially after his non-aggression pact with the Soviets.

Unfortunately, Poland was left on her own. But this was a result of years of appeasement toward Germany. Hindsight being 20/20 there’s any number of arguments one could make that could have avoided the whole mess to begin with.

Had the Soviets found away to align themselves with Britain and France (and vice versa) Hitler would have been held in check.

Germany attempted to come to an agreement with Poland in regards to the "corridor". This was rejected by Poland who was bolstered by their alliance with Britain and France.

There was a series of miscalculations and mistakes that should be shared by the world. Britain and France were in no shape to respond to Germany's quick advance into Poland.

By the time of the Warsaw uprising in '44 the fate of Poland had been decided at Yalta. Churchill and Roosevelt agreed to Stalin’s demands. They really had no choice except to go to war with the Soviets so they gave in. Poland would be a part of the Soviet sphere of "influence". The Polish exiles in England wanted to show that they were willing to fight for their liberation to show the world that they should be given the right to decide for themselves how they will live following the war.

The only "ally" that was in position to support Warsaw was the Soviets and they had no interest in seeing the uprising succeed. Poland would be under there control shortly any way.

Following World War 1 Britain and France screwed up the world. Their failures lead directly to World War 2 and ultimately the expansion of communism. Their policies to the Middle East after World War 1 have direct impact on what we face in that region today.

While in hindsight it is easy to see I imagine it was a bit more convoluted at the time.

[demaw1]

Bikekil.........1939 poland.


       I am writing because I would like if possible to help you soften your anger and maybe help to clear up somethings for you.

        I have a friend, about 90 years old ,he and his wife doesnt live to far from me.She also survived. In 39 he was a major  or colonel on the staff of a general[sorry cant remember his name ] anyway he was in intell. He still has the blue number tatto on his arm the germans gave him.

         It would be nice if you would read Octivious post again as it rings with much truth.
        Polands fate was sealed in 1937[date right?] by chamberland and a piece of paper. Appeasement never works,a lesson many americans of today havent learned.Germany could have been stopped in 1937 but it was to late in 1939. There was a treaty between russia and germany.Germany and russia invaded poland.Because of what Octivious said no one was ready to help poland, and because of the treaty helping poland may have brought russia into the war on germanys side.
       You are mistaken about the poles fighting thinking no one cared. they fought bravely as long as they could knowing it was a delaying tatic to help france and briton prepare a little more.Everyone knew it was going to be a long war.There was nothing anyone could do against germany and russia.Anyway the polish military had planed for delaying tatics. You should be proud of them they knew what they were doing, they could have surrendered sooner.
      When warsaw came about the allies were again not able to help in the way you would like.You must understand russia was an ally only because she was the lesser of 2 evils. I wont go into all the reasons why, but simply, put if we had helped more than we did there was a chance war with russia might have started then, and then was not the right time plus there was nothing to help with  .There are others on this thread, that have talked about this period of time ,.by and large they are right. Both churchill and fdr in 42 knew we may have to fight russia. Actually there were fights between us and russia on the ground and in the air here and there the closer we got to berlin .

      Ok now the bad part.....
   
         Simply put we,not england or anyone else sold you out.I offer no excuses but would like to explain.

         fdr was sick and nearer to death during that time than anyone thought. During the time of the meeting,fdr was fine at first but became weaker thus losing the upper hand to stalin. churchill fought like hell to keep a united front against stalin,but fdr was also churchills good friend and america was the power.With out amercia churchill could do nothing but try to keep the peices together. I believe if it had been 1943 it would have been different. Now dont get me wrong ,fdr didnt just roll over.
     
        Fdr and america was sick of war,remember we were fighting on 2 fronts, and they felt nazism had to be crushed totally.It wasnt as easy to beat germany as the movies and some books would make you think. Only 15 seconds was the difference between victory and defeat at normandy.Look at the battle of the bulge,montgomerys failed end run. In reality we were ready to fight russia but at the right time,and it would not have taken long to defeat her,but at the right time, and at the time of warsaw it wasnt the right time, plus poland and others had already been sold out.  A very large factor in all this was what germany did to the jews and I am sorry to say polands part in it. With that the wind went out of the sails so far as fighting russia was concerned.The world is as it is.

         I was going to call my friend seeking some advice for you but it is way to late ,so I will try.

         Let it go, its over,with all the mistakes made, It was America that help to  make  possible the chance  you now have. Take it ,run with it , make a new future for poland.Be wise and build poland up so that if attacked you may lose, but a terrible price will be paid by the attacker.Be leary of allies, but dont think you can make it with out them. Be proud of warsaw it was a guttse thing to do knowing you had no chance to win, and in its way helped to win the war.


  good luck and thanks for polands support so far.

[ramzey]

Originally posted by bikekil
so Grun, you must be dumb also

As some flights (mostly Polish and American voleuneer pilots) dropped supplies for the uprisers, it was possible... and it was not 2-3 or 5 flights.

whey wanted to and they did the drop.

so face it - it was possible. Or please quote this part and say it was not possible? can you do it?


As for for paratroopers, Poland wanted to go there. Call me drunked, but i see noting more then a bad will (aka better purpose) in not letting them go.

To use Funked's expression from the other thread... i would not pee on the Allies like we had if they bottom part was on fire.

noone of USAF pilots voluntier to fly over Poland with supply mission, afaik
It was brits, canadians, south africans. Thos pilots show your bravery and for them. They did much better then they goverments.
Bike read som good books insted on quote taily stories.
It was not possible to send paras to warsaw.  C47 had no chance to reach. Do you imagine losses in such a flight? totally waste of human lifes.

[ramzey]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
Can't....resist....arrrrrgh! I tried!

Rip, you are worse then redneck

have you found WMD?

[Rino]

One more thing the Americans did to screw up the world.
It's a wonder we can look in the mirror anymore:rolleyes:

[Toad]

What's the range of a combat loaded C-47 anyway?

Do I understand bike's contention that a massive airlift of para's from basically coastal France to Warsaw was a viable operation?

How many C-47's got shot down on the short hop from England to Normandy?

Somebody help me out here. Is the idea that a few thousand C-47's could have flown across most of occupied Europe and executed a successful paratrooper drop on Warsaw?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes, 1944 was fcked up, but blame the commies for that, the allies couldnt have done much at that time.

Grun, you keep amazing me.

Yes, Soviet Army should have helped the uprising that was started to oppose Soviet influence! Yes, Stalin had to send another 200-300 thousands of Soviet soldiers to assist the force that was already fighting against Soviet Army behind our lines in Belorussia!

Damn, that Russians must be superhumans! After operation Bagration they had to keep on throwing themselves into a bloodbath without any rest and regrouping. And other battles that went on at the same time (Sandomir beachhead) were unimportant.

Bourgeous Poland with it's "government" in London was our enemy. That sad loosers are to blame for the Uprising and it's failure. It's a good example of how some stupid bastards with political ambitions can screw everything up

[Boroda]

Originally posted by bikekil
oh, and to be sure you know what i mean by Allies - SOVIETS WERE NOT OUR ALLIES! they've come here to slave us (and they did).

Do you really believe that Soviets "enslaved" you?... If so - sorry for that

I do think of Poland as of an ally. My Grand Father provided artillery support for Koscushko division (he served in Guards Mortar Corps). I only remember that he said nazis were fighting Poles more severe then Russians...

 

Originally posted by bikekil
Oh,  and it;s nothing more then "putting a history straight".
I have no hard feelings for British, French or the Russion people (for any generation).

So di I. And I really feel guilty for what Russia have done to Poland. But sometimes blaming Russians is going way too far.

We also don't need apologies for 20000 (at least) Russian POWs who disappeared in Polish camps after WWI and 1920 war.

One question: what is your attitude to Baltic republics praising people who served in local SS legion as "freedom fighters"?

[Octavius]

Originally posted by Boroda
It's a good example of how some stupid bastards with political ambitions can screw everything up

Wow, while I agree with that statement in general, I must call pot/kettle on this.

Nazi-Soviet non-aggression pact... Plans for slicing up Poland weeks before September of 1939.  The "need" for a buffer zone, greed, and sprinkled with uncle Joe's paranoia.  Yep, stupid bastards with political ambitions can screw everything up

Poles shouldn't have put up any resistance.  Let Germany/Soviets steamroll right on through... afterall, any resistance by stupid bastards just screws everything up.  

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by ramzey
Rip, you are worse then redneck

have you found WMD?

not in the perceived quantities that the left expects! But they've found them!