so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)

[bikekil]

after all we kicked da "sad" comies (or should i say Soviets?) outta here monsieur Boroda. So the sad looser is...?

So guys, maybe i can not read.. but what our Allies did to help us other then daclare a war (on the paper)?

As i said before, there is a reason and explenation of everything... one believe this, other believe that, but my intention is not to judge imagined (mine or yours) reasons, but the action that were done.

We were Allies right?
We've signed a pact, right?
Our Allies supposed thenselves to help us out in case of invasion right?

So what the hell they did to help other then trashtalking?

They let us serve in their armies and to die for them? What else?

As you guys said - there was allways  a bad moment to help Poland out...

Same as with the Uprising, there was a good moment to say the positive opinion about that idea, but when the idea came true, there was bad moment to help out? ( a side note to Ramzey, instead of talking about reading the books, you could try to use your head in more creative way. You don't believe there was no way to help uprisiers right? If so, why you entered the thread saying that Allies were just watching?)

So still, the bottom line is - our Allies did nothing (but now i could add, "did nothing, but some are arguing about the reasons).

Noone took your hand and signed that you will help us. You promised it for some reason. Now my judgement is based on what you did, not you could or could not do.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The Soviets were not your friends, they did not come to help you or to liberate you. They came to conquer you. They did so on september 17 and they did so again on their way to berlin in 1944. So I hope that settles the russian part of it.

Great. In 1939 USSR returned it's parts occupied by Poland since 1920. Ever heard of Curzon line? Do you really think that nazi occupation was better then Soviet?

Looking at "invasion" to Poland from practical point of view: do you think that USSR had to refuse from getting some land, several hundreed kilometers, from Germans? Maybe this distance saved Moscow in 1941...

If Poland was a friendly country, if it didn't participate in division of Czechoslovakia in 1939 (that's why Poland didn't give Red Army the permission to assist Czech army or even cross Polish airspace), if it didn't wage agressive war against Soviet land in 1920 - everything could be much better.

Also please try to find some information about Soviet-British-French negotiations in Moscow in August 1939. It was obvious that "allies" will not help Poland, and USSR was the only power that could deploy troops immediately against Germany. Unfortunately - it was too much, Stalin didn't want to engage in a war for "allied" promices when they openly stated they will not engage in at least several months. So he had no other choice then to sign a treaty with Hilter

[bikekil]

Boroda, while you said thart.. my grandpa, an officer in Polish Army in 39 serving at the eastern border got attacked and prisoned by Soviets, then he spent a winter in tent 40km from Moscow in a summer military uniform while working with no food. Soviets were sure our friends and Allies at that time

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by bikekil
Boroda, while you said thart.. my grandpa, an officer in Polish Army in 39 serving at the eastern border got attacked and prisoned by Soviets, then he spent a winter in tent 40km from Moscow in a summer military uniform while working with no food. Soviets were sure our friends and Allies at that time

Surely all Western Propoganda, right Boroda?

[Octavius]

Originally posted by bikekil
So guys, maybe i can not read.. but what our Allies did to help us other then daclare a war (on the paper)?

So still, the bottom line is - our Allies did nothing (but now i could add, "did nothing, but some are arguing about the reasons).

Unfortunately they did not act fast enough... or at all for that matter.

But look at the options.  What could have been done?  Bargaining with the Soviets was nearly useless.  Soviets demanded Finnish territory:  buffer zone in the north near murmansk, an open port to the baltic sea, and would have had 'bonus' access to nickel (which actually was discovered later by Germany).  The Allies weren't going to sellout neutral (at the time, not co-belligerent w/ germany yet) Finland in order to keep Hitler in check.  

Another option:  Consider France *had* the willingness and the drive to go on the offensive within days of September 3rd.  The Soviets not being aligned with the Allies and seeking their own interests with the Non-aggression Pact... would they still attack Poland from the east just as the Germans attack from the west?  Say the Allies were remotely successfull on the Western front during this hypothetical offensive, how would the Soviets be dealt with in Poland if they also invaded?

 I know there are an infinite number of "what ifs".  Too many x-factors in the equation to be sure.  Hindsight is 20/20.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Octavius
Wow, while I agree with that statement in general, I must call pot/kettle on this.

Nazi-Soviet non-aggression pact... Plans for slicing up Poland weeks before September of 1939.  The "need" for a buffer zone, greed, and sprinkled with uncle Joe's paranoia.  Yep, stupid bastards with political ambitions can screw everything up

Poles shouldn't have put up any resistance.  Let Germany/Soviets steamroll right on through... afterall, any resistance by stupid bastards just screws everything up.  

Read my comments below. Unfortunately it was obvious that "Molotov-Ribbentrop" pact was forced by an "allied" refusal to do anything to assist Poland.

More to say, "allies" openly demanded that USSR should declare war to help "allied" guaranties to Poland while "allies" didn't have to engage if USSR was invaded.

Do you think that USSR had to declare war on Germany why nations that guaranteed assistance to Poland said they are going to sit and watch it without doing anything? Stalin made the only possible decision.

[Octavius]

Originally posted by Boroda
Read my comments below. Unfortunately it was obvious that "Molotov-Ribbentrop" pact was forced by an "allied" refusal to do anything to assist Poland.

More to say, "allies" openly demanded that USSR should declare war to help "allied" guaranties to Poland while "allies" didn't have to engage if USSR was invaded.

Do you think that USSR had to declare war on Germany why nations that guaranteed assistance to Poland said they are going to sit and watch it without doing anything? Stalin made the only possible decision.

Our history might be crossed here    The "allies" (france, GB), had nothing to entice the Soviets to join in the defense of Poland.  Why would the Soviets attack Germany out of the goodness of their hearts?  Finland was a target  The Soviets were offered a "juicy" deal with Germany... free hand in Poland, Finland, in exchange for raw materials and of course, non-aggression between the two nations.

what is your version?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Octavius
Another option:  Consider France *had* the willingness and the drive to go on the offensive within days of September 3rd.  The Soviets not being aligned with the Allies and seeking their own interests with the Non-aggression Pact... would they still attack Poland from the east just as the Germans attack from the west?  Say the Allies were remotely successfull on the Western front during this hypothetical offensive, how would the Soviets be dealt with in Poland if they also invaded?
 

This is not an option. Allied delegation that negotiated woth Voroshilov in August 1939 didn't provide any plans of attacking Germany, and more, they declared that they will be unable to deploy any troops against Germany in several months

Before August 22nd the agreement with "allies" was possible, but they kept mumbling instead of answering Voroshilov's questions: how many divisions they will deploy, in what time. USSR had clear answers on that, and "allies" just showed that they want to fight this war by looking at Germans, Poles and Russians killing each other.

[Wotan]

The failure of a Soviet GB/France alliance wasn't a result of what the Soviets wanted but because of what little England and France offered in return.

The Soviets got everything they wanted anyway.

When the Soviets attacked Finland GB didn't do much to help their "ally" just like they did with Poland.

France and Britain expected the mere threat of force to be enough to deter Hitler. Hollow threats of force mean nothing to aggressors. Hitler called their bluff and won at least for the moment.

[Octavius]

Originally posted by Boroda
This is not an option. Allied delegation that negotiated woth Voroshilov in August 1939 didn't provide any plans of attacking Germany, and more, they declared that they will be unable to deploy any troops against Germany in several months

[/b]

Well my hypothetical option would negate this negotiation  

Before August 22nd the agreement with "allies" was possible, but they kept mumbling instead of answering Voroshilov's questions: how many divisions they will deploy, in what time. USSR had clear answers on that, and "allies" just showed that they want to fight this war by looking at Germans, Poles and Russians killing each other. [/B]

Again, the allies had nothing on the table to offer in exchange for Soviet assistance in the east.  If the Soviets had no intention of joining the Allies, why would this Voroshilov even ask such questions?  just for intel so they can go ahead with their polish attack?

[Wotan]

The Soviets wanted very much an alliance with France and Britain. They had "intentions" unfortunately Britain and France could offer nothing that would make such an agreement worth while.

This led ultimately to Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. The Soviets would gain space (territory and time). They just didnt get enough time as it turned out.

[_Schadenfreude_]

Originally posted by bikekil
If you have a while, read this:
http://www.warsawuprising.com/

then, here is something that happened now:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3941897.stm

so... like in 1939 our allies could not help us better? I mean.. imagine you being one of those brave men, fighting there to realise that after all you are the only ones who care?
then you wait 60 long years and you are hunted by our "Red Friends" as being in the AK (Home Army) was seen as a crime by commies... you can not say about it as it's a crime to remember the uprising... so you waiting that 60 years to hear what? " Uh.. well.. maybe you just shoudn't do it?"

and you know what? i say,Poland doesn't need apology. What Poland needs is good memory to trust no allies.

p.s.  Big goes to the Germans. You appologised for that was many many more times that it was needed and you are still doing it. I think it's about the time to say just "we do remember".. again.

Well personally nothing, I wasn't born yet, but two squadrons of South Africans volunteered to fly in supplies. They took 40% casualties between 8th of August and 22nd of September.

"The Russians refused to allow Allied aircraft to land in Russians occupied-territory, refuel and return. The Russian betrayal of the Allies placed Churchill in a terrible dilemma. He had given pledge to support the Polish partisans. The only air force units who could help were those based in Italy and specifically the heavy bombers of 2nd Bomber Wing at Foggia which were under South African control.

Churchill, realising these proposed Warsaw raids would be almost suicidal for the aircrews, could not order such missions, but he asked for volunteers. Without doubt, the Polish aircrews of 205 Bomber Group all volunteered, and they were not alone. The crews of two South African squadrons volunteered.

Between 8 August and 22 September 1944, British and Polish air squadrons, alongside 31 and 34 Squadrons of SAAF, dropped supplies to beleaguered Polish partisans fighting againstoverhelming odds in the city of Warsaw. A total of 181 sorties were attempted, with the loss of 31 B24 Liberator bomber aircraft. The loss rate of 40% (almost one man in evry two) was phenomenal. It has been debated that the sheer heroism shown by the aircrews in attempting to complete thier missions, was beyond equal. It was one of the most tragic and heroic opeartions in the SAAF history, yet it stands out among the many shining deeds in history of our Air Force."

[Boroda]

Originally posted by bikekil
after all we kicked da "sad" comies (or should i say Soviets?) outta here monsieur Boroda. So the sad looser is...?
 

Who is the looser?

The country that had to join an agressive military alliance to fight for some foreign interests in the Middle East. At the same time paying billions of dollars to switch to unnessesary alien military equipment.

We "enslaved" you, but look, did we make Poles fight in Afghanistan instead of Russians, Ukrainians or Kazakhs?

Didn't you learn that such "allies" are indeed worse then enemies? And now they move their bases to Poland, closer to Russian border. Do you believe they are here to "protect" you? Or maybe to make you fight with us, watching it from overseas as they did several times already?

Sorry.

[Octavius]

Originally posted by Boroda
Who is the looser?

The country that had to join an agressive military alliance to fight for some foreign interests in the Middle East. At the same time paying billions of dollars to switch to unnessesary alien military equipment.

We "enslaved" you, but look, did we make Poles fight in Afghanistan instead of Russians, Ukrainians or Kazakhs?

[/b]

You're saying the Poles should be grateful they were forced into a communist satellite state and not forced to fight in soviet wars, instead of having the freedom to choose wtf they wanted to do?  

Didn't you learn that such "allies" are indeed worse then enemies? And now they move their bases to Poland, closer to Russian border. Do you believe they are here to "protect" you? Or maybe to make you fight with us, watching it from overseas as they did several times already?

Sorry.

paranoia is still this rampant?

[edit]:  sorry, it's not my aim to help derail this thread.  i wont post any more[/edit]

[Boroda]

Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Well personally nothing, I wasn't born yet, but two squadrons of South Africans volunteered to fly in supplies. They took 40% casualties between 8th of August and 22nd of September.

"The Russians refused to allow Allied aircraft to land in Russians occupied-territory, refuel and return. The Russian betrayal of the Allies placed Churchill in a terrible dilemma. He had given pledge to support the Polish partisans.

Sorry, but the Russian refusal to allow "allies" to use Soviet air bases had one big reason: 90% of the supplies dropped by "allied" planes was seized by Germans. It's a sad truth

Air raids to support the Uprising were nothing but another propaganda issue Look at that Evil Soviets! They didn't allow us to use their bases to supply Germans!

Again, it's so ally-ish. Directly supporting the force that fights USSR already on liberated territory...