so, you helped huh? (Warsaw Uprising)

[demaw1]

Bottom line Russia gets her bellybutton kicked by  afganistan..there for what 2 ..3 years?

   America defeats afganistan in 4 weeks turns around and rolls thru iraq in 8 weeks.  If America as ruthless as russia was there would be nothing in Iraq now but some morning and evening prayers.

     You want to put chart up ?   put one up that shows how many russian troops dead compared to ours in afganistan.

[B17Skull12]

That Russia is a complete Different Russia than during WW2.  Also consider the Afgans where getting help from none other than the United States.  When we went in there they had no help.  Nice try please go back to watching history channel.

[Wotan]

The raids against Ploesti did not halt oil production until May '44. Speer estimated 6-8 weeks before they could be repaired. Ploesti wasn’t awash until the Soviets gained control.

As stated to you many times even air raids on oil production, like that of most other vital German war industries, wasn't enough to stop production until it was already evident that Germany had lost the war. The reason they had lost the war was the Soviets had ground them to death on the Eastern Front. The LW flew almost 350000 sorties over the eastern front and less then half that in the West.

I didn't say "bombing did little" as a blanket statement. Quote me directly saying that; be sure to get it in the correct context.

Here I will quote exactly what I said:

During the crucial years when the Germans still had a chance at victory the western allied bombing campaign achieved very little in terms of collapsing the German economy. It wasn’t until '44 and '45 where the greatest impact of the bombing campaign was felt. But even then German production was high; they produced more aircraft for instance etc...

I also said previous to the above that the effects of strategic bombing were overrated. I then offered a source that clearly showed that strategic bombing during the vital periods of the war had only a marginal impact on how the war would turn. That's completely different then saying "bombing did little". Why do you flat out lie about what it is I have stated? Anyone here can go check it for themselves.

No one is talking about "air superiority". Blown up factories didn’t stop the LW. USAAF fighters shooting down German aircraft did. LW production in '44 was 40000 aircraft.

(There are so many misspelled words in the below statement that I hate to quote it...)

The german experance suggests that even a first class military power ,rugged and resilient as germany, can not live long under full scale exploitation of air weapons. Thus allied air weapons were decisive in the war in europe.

Allied air power was not brought up to "full scale exploitation" or "Air Dominance" until '44. By then the war was over anyway. You are taking things out of context and purposely manipulating them in the very way you accuse me of doing. Any one can verify that.

Allied air weapons were only decisive in the later part of the war. At which point the situation on the ground was already dire for the Wehrmacht.

What I objected to was the total disreguard for the bravery and dedication of all the men from all the countrys that fought.Unless of course you were russian.

Once again you resort to lying. I never said anything questioning the bravery or dedication of the rest of world in seeing Hitler defeated. You have made that up.

Any thing that remotely resembles that was in direct reply to the Ami idiot Rino. I explained that to you and even asked you if you understood it. Either you were too stupid to understand or you are just lying now to gain sympathy.

[demaw1]

Wotan....

   I believe I said may 44 I DID,I DID say may 44.....I got your number wotan....took a while.....but I got your number.

  I dont care what spear said ,5 months or so after may 44 the oil was of no account...and the mighty russians had not taken the fields yet. Spin it any way you want to I have proof.
 
   Oh I see now it is stop production is it....no way we didnt talk about stop production. There is always some production, the idea is to reduce production to the point that the enemy is really hurting..  As you say germany was still producing planes etc.     Thats ok I will take your first flip and leave your 2nd flop alone.

    Again...It was not evident in 44 that germany had lost the war.  It was likely  but not evident...Buy the way. If we had not greatly reduced the fuel when we did. how would russia had handled  those 1800 tigers that were ready to roll?

   Under no circumstances did....the soviets grinding down the germans as you say win the war. Again this type of war could not be won with out air power. You didnt come close to german war production. They were in moscow in 42,  they were tearing apart your war production effert as they were going along.
     
 Do you have any idea, what would have happened, if hitler had not cut back on war production, and start removing units until he was sure moscow was taken?....What if we were not at war with him, we were not  bombing  hell out of him ,and germany  only had to face you. You would be up the creek without a paddle.

   Bombing.....
 
     I said , little effect...........you said......marginal.......what s the differance?

      All you and germany were doing,  was moving armies back and forth for a long period of time,  after they for some stupid reason stopped at moscow.

    I gave you the quotes about air power being decisive in ww2.  With out our air power ,germany would have chewed you up and spit you out....It was a combined effert,    America didnt win the war....But without America ,  germany would have won it.
    and America was the only country that could have fought germany to a stand still / or maybe won alone.

    I have read your book.....I have your number....   I have found my book.....and I have proof for most of what I have said. Believe what you want ...I am done

[Wotan]

You have nothing but incoherent babble.

You claimed this:

As I said before, wotans whole point is, bombing did little good

You are a ****ing liar. I pointed that out.

That's not at all what said and any one with half a brain can go back and read it.

My "whole point" in replying to Rino about strategic bombing was to show that the effect of the bombing at the time when it was most needed wasn't realized and in fact it wasn't until '44 when the war had already swung that the bombing campaign had its greatest impact. By that time the war was already over.

Low and behold and in full idiocy you post a reply that confirms my point 100% and then you claim it as proof you are "right".

You truly are an idiot.

Do I need to quote it all again for you or can you take it upon yourself to go back and reread it?

[anonymous]

Originally posted by demaw1
Bottom line Russia gets her bellybutton kicked by  afganistan..there for what 2 ..3 years?

   America defeats afganistan in 4 weeks turns around and rolls thru iraq in 8 weeks.  If America as ruthless as russia was there would be nothing in Iraq now but some morning and evening prayers.

     You want to put chart up ?   put one up that shows how many russian troops dead compared to ours in afganistan.

to many difference demaw1. tech difference conflict different pakistan was staging area where muj getting guns money medicine and training from west and pakistan. i was in afghanistan and ive talked to russians who were in afghanistan very diff conflicts. russian combat troops do well against muj but muj get smart and get some modern training and start hitting rear echelon and supply lines and such. and c4i of coalition in afghanistan is far ahead of anything russians had.

[Wotan]

Oh I see now it is stop production is it

You can change it to "vitally impacts production" if you want the fact remains in 1944 the Wehrmacht was being defeated on all fronts. The allies were out producing Hitler in every industry imaginable. The war was all but over. Any extra production in 1944 would not have change the outcome.

Even with the reductions in production due to the bombing campaign in '44 the Germans were producing more things like tanks and aircraft then they had previously. It was of no consequence.

During the crucial periods the bombing campaign had little effect on deciding which way the war would turn. Lend lease didn’t either. It was the Red Army that reversed the situation by fighting and destroying the Wehrmacht on the Steppes of Russia.

You haven't posted one thing that contradicts that point.

[anonymous]

demaw relax man you really reading way to much into things. i am far from young and i respect submariner because on few occasion i work with or around them i learn you cant have small brain and be navy nuke man. also didnt see where wotan say he was an "o" but he said six years in which leads me to think he was an "edog" god bless him. i think you reading in to much. nobody saying americans at war didnt matter or died for nothing. just facts of war battles bigger between german and russian. no doubt that us and uk being involved saved lives of civilian all over europe and russia and saved some russian soldier.

[Wotan]

I didn't post the fact I was in the USN or on a submarine to garner respect but to contrast that against his accusation that I was a "traitor".  They didn't let "traitors" do they job I did.

I enlisted in the USN after High School not so much out of "patriotism" but because of the opportunity my country and in particular the USN offered. It was clearly a "selfish" decision.

I spent my time and when I got out I got a job at an electric generation station where I am still employed. There's nothing unique or remarkable about my service in the Navy. I just did my job and repaid the debt I owed for my education.

I was not an Officer and never claimed to be.

I will ask him again to please stop misclassifying and misquoting what I have said.

[Rino]

Demaw,
     Might as well hang it up, the current PC reworked version of
history being taught today is that the USSR won WW2 all by itself.

     Sort of like the Tuskegee airmen, Navaho code talkers and
Nisei infantry beat the Axis all by themselves while 30 million
white guys sat around with their thumbs up their butts.  
I certainly don't deny their important contributions, but they were
only parts of a whole as concerns the war effort.

     Yes, the Soviets certainly used their advanced meatgrinder
tactics to defeat the German invasion.  Their T-34s and Il-2s were
class of the world at the time on their introduction.  They were
fortunate enough to have a large enough territory to be able to
move their aircraft and tank production out of range.

     While I have never claimed that the US won the war by itself,
denying the American contribution is massively stupid.  America
was the only combatant in WW2 that fought and won a 2 front
conflict.  While our armaments were certainly not the best, they
armed virtually all of our allies during the war, including the USSR.

     I merely claim that the US helped Russia massively more than
the USSR helped the western allies.  The air battles on the west
front cost Germany alot of experienced aircrew and the bombing
raids on France and Germany garnered alot more attention from
Hitler than the raids from the east.

     I stand by my assertion that Stalin was an opportunist..look
at the invasion of Manchuria at war's end.  He "cherry-picked"
a Japan that had been pounded to dust by the US and UK.

[Thrawn]

demaw and Rino, please stop misrepresenting Wotan.  It's making you both look really silly.

[thrila]

Originally posted by Rino   America
was the only combatant in WW2 that fought and won a 2 front
conflict.  

Well that isn't true.

[Torque]

WWII was won during BOB, the rest was just going thru the motions. If Hitler had captured England's deep water Ports things would be certainly different today.

[Thrawn]

WW2 was won in 1066 when the effeminate English nobility were replaced by the tough-as-nails, badass Frenchies.

[Angus]

Wotan, I disagree with you. I think there is No way the Russians could have won against the Germans, had the Germans not been hampered by the Western Allies.
Note that at the Battles of Stalingrad and then Kursk, won by the Russians by a MARGIN, the Germans suffered in the exact time,  a crushing defeat in Tunisia (300.000 dead and captured), and Kursk corresponds with the Allied landings at Sicily (Bigger amphibious landings than Normandy).
In the biggest advances on the Eastern front in 1944, the Germans are being routed in France, and their transport is in shambles.

The engagements on the eastern front were truly big, however, not really bigger if you add together air warfare, naval warfare and the multiple fronts of the western allies.

The russians who fell were many more than the westerners, true is that. However wars are not won with ones own corpses. Remember Zhukovs words, "when my men enter a minefield, they move across it as if it was not there"
How many Germans fell on the Eastern front compared to all other fronts?