Furballers -vs- Timid Pilots

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by SlapShot

I typically laugh at those types too Zaz (BnZ), but what some of us would like to do is convince them to mix it up ... and lets have fun.

My point is, who gives rat's arse what they do. Best way to punish those types is to dodge their feeble pass, laugh as they extend 2 sectors then wack their buddies left to die. Let their own teammates berate them into fighting. There's plenty of fish in the sea. Or better yet, get in a fast plane yourself, get up there and kick their arse, that's what I like to do. I would venture to guess anyone flying that Bore n' Zoom style hasn't the faintest notion how to fight at altitude. If you are fast enough to keep 'em cornered they are easy kills.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by SlapShot

Getting better at any of these "disciplines" requires, I would believe, one to die alot ... you can only truely learn by your mistakes and mistakes in this game means death.

 

Anyone who has played more than a year HAS died alot and therefore learned alot already, there's no avoiding it. Saying people only learn and get better by dieing is somewhat erroneous. Yes, learning from your mistakes has merit, to a point. But, once you've gained enough experience whereby your mistakes are few and far between, the opportunity to learn in this way has reached a point of diminishing returns. It's at this point one actually learns more by practicing, articulating and mastering tactics that the individual pilot finds most effective. You can learn more by repeated and refined success in various situations as by any failure.

Zazen

[Urchin]

To continue your High Spit/ Low Tiff example.  

A spitfire in that situation doesn't have the Tiffie cornered.  The only way that Tiffie is in trouble is if he just got out of a fight and is going 200 mph.  Even then he can probably still get out of there unless the Spit pilot really knows what he is doing.

Lets say the Spit pilot is doing 300 at 2k, and the Tiffie is going 200 at 100 feet. After the Spit gets done diving on the Tiffie, he'll be doing ~400 mph.  Hopefully, our hero in the Tiffie has seen the Spit coming.  Lets give Tiffieboy 30 seconds of knowing where the Spit is.  So in that 30 seconds, Tiffieboy endeavors to do a couple things.  

First, build up a little bit of speed.  The Tiffie could probably get to 250-270 in 30 seconds, from 200.  I'm making a guesstimate here, I don't fly the Tiffie but I know it accelerates pretty well.

Second, get in a good position.  If Tiffieboy has any sense, he won't try to run AWAY from the Spit... he'll run TOWARD the spit.  He'll get himself at the Spits low 1 or 11, and get ready to engage.  

So, now we'll get to the Spit.  The Spit sees this low slow Tiffie, and starts salivating while he dives in.  The Tiffie sees him and starts coming towards him... he starts drooling.  He sees that the Tiffie is going to pass close under him on his 11.  So, he banks left, steepens up his dive some because he wants to get that shot in.  

Tiffieboy sees this.  Actually.. Tiffieboy has seen this so many times before, he could do this part with his eyes closed.  He judges the Spitfires speed, then pulls up to "duck" the shot when the Spit is at about 600 yards.  He then rolls to place his lift vector where the Spit will come out from behind his tail, if the Spit continues that "diving turn" in an attempt to come back around on his 6.  If the Spitfire stays in the turn, he is going to eat 4 Hizookas.  If the Spitfire comes around hard in a loop, Tiffieboy will roll his lift vector back towards the Spit and do a loop too.  And then the Spit will eat 4 Hizookas.  If the Spit does none of these, but instead tries to set up for another pass, Tiffieboy levels out and hauls ass.  The Spitfire might get another chance at it, but it is very doubtful.  I know this because Spits can't catch a 190a5 after a manuever like that, and the Tiffie accelerates better than the a5, and is a good bit faster.

You don't really need to bleed off all your speed yanking all over the sky trying to dodge a BnZers pass.  I'd guess I probably lose about 20-30 mph in a typical dodge, but I also dodge vertically upward, so if they try to set up for another pass, I can nose back down to regain my lost speed.

[Urchin]

And no Midnight, I've never categorized you or your squad as "Bore n Zoooomer's".  I've seen you fight aggressively, or cautiously, depending on the circumstances at hand.  Since thats the same way I fly, it'd be tough to castigate you for it.  

I just call all P-51s 'runstangs', same as I call 190s "run90s"... doesn't really matter who's flying it.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Zazen13 If the Typhoon is getting dove on as is my example near the ground, there is little room to accelerate after a manuever and any nose-to-nose turn by the Typhoon would serve to only temporarily negate the Spit's advantage.

[/b]

Urchin covered this one well.  The Typhoon can force a nose-to-nose headon pass fairly easy at high speed and then use its acceleration and speed to create separation.  This is a survivable situation.  In the very least, the Typhoon can make things unpleasant for the Spit before finally running out of options.  

The Typhoon will have blown alot of E compared to the Spit doing that, the Typhoon should not be able to escape, look at the charts, a Typhoon does not have a very significant accleration advantage over a Spitfire. I can't find the data, but from my experience a Typhoon does not have an instantaneous turnrate advantage over a Spit at any speed. Spits actually handle very well at speed in AH.

Spits handle okay at high speed in AH.  They tend to not lock up, but they also tend to have a massive turn radius that other planes with better instantaneous turns can exploit when travelling at similar speeds.  The Typhoon is one such plane.

In addition, I'm not sure where you're getting your acceleration information.  If you look at Mandoble's acceleration tests (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117944), you'll find that the Typhoon outaccelerates the Spit V and Spit IX marginally at slow speed and substantially at medium to high speeds.  So if a fast Typhoon can spoil the Spitfire's shot by turning into him, he can use this medium and high speed acceleration to create separation and equalize energy states.

But what do I know?

-- Todd/Leviathn

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Zazen13
I agree that if you are new to the game you should not Energy fight first. It requires alot more experience to judge relative E states than it does to judge angles in  angles fighting. Why anyone new to the game would be 'afraid' of anything is beyond my comprehension. I haven't met a newbie yet who was afriad to die, in fact those are the guys upping repeatedly at CAP'd fields just looking for instant action/experience.

Zazen

I have been a TnB guy for quite some time, and having poked my finger in fun at the "E"/BnZ crew, I decided to see what it was like.

The plane I chose ... P-38

Here is some statistical history ...

Tour 47

Spit V - 542 Kills
P-38 - 3 Kills

Tour 48

Spit V - 311 Kills
P-38 - 27 Kills (thinking about it)

Tour 49

Spit V - 403 Kills
P-38 - 267 Kills (learning the plane)

Tour 50

Spit V - 158 Kills
P-38 - 458 Kills (main ride - still learning)

Tour 51

Spit V - 136 Kills
P-38 - 580 Kills (exclusive ride - still learning)

I easily scored more kills in the P-38 in Tour 51 than the kills I earned in the Spit V in Tour 47.

I don't believe for 1 second that if I had not had learned angles fighting, I would not have been that successful in a P-38 in such a short amount of time.

If you fly the P-38 and use just its speed and climbing abilities to pick people off, you will get alot of kills and survive, but you won't get as many kills if do not know the angles end of the game and really fight with it.

So I am not buying ...

It requires alot more experience to judge relative E states than it does to judge angles in  angles fighting.

edit : thanks TC

[TequilaChaser]

If you fly the P-38 and use just its speed and climbing abilities to pick people off, you will get alot of kills and survive, but you won't get as many kills if you do not know the angles end of the game and really fight with it.

think this is what SlapShot meant

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by SlapShot


If you fly the P-38 and use just its speed and climbing abilities to pick people off, you will get alot of kills and survive, but you won't get as many kills if do not know the angles end of the game and really fight with it.

So I am not buying ...

It requires alot more experience to judge relative E states than it does to judge angles in  angles fighting.

edit : thanks TC

Another one seduced to the Dark Side of the Lightning.

Yep Slapshot, you're pretty much correct.


ack-ack

[Stang]

Originally posted by GScholz
That is a fallacy. If what you say is true then WWII air combat would have been impossible. Everybody flew "timidly" in real life. You see ... they only had one life.

Marseille didn't.  Dude flew into packs of hurri's and p40's by himself.  And you know what? He OWNED!!!      

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Stang
Marseille didn't.  Dude flew into packs of hurri's and p40's by himself.  And you know what? He OWNED!!!      

With a reported 17 kills in one day in North Africa.  He also was an extremely good shot and would always aim for the engine and/or cockpit area, which would explain the reports of one pass, one kill that are credited to him.


ack-ack

[DipStick]

Since you started this thread... When I think of timid pilots the first thing that comes to mind is the "412 Runstangs", the "JBs" and a few others. With the notable exception of jonnyb and JB42 - who both can actually fly/fight with the best of'em.

For me and many others I think, it simply comes down to 'how much time we have to play' and 'how much fun ie: how many fights we can get into' in that time.

Furballers want to get the most bang for their buck. We dive right in now matter what the odds or disadvantage and do our best with what we have. It's a blast sometimes and can really get the heart pumping.

Apparently B-n-Zers like to fly only to survive or something. Now matter if they fly for a hour and only get 1 or 2 easy (cherry-picks) kills and rtb. I really can't understand this (and don't waste your time trying to explain it). I don't think alot of furballers understand it either, hence the many threads like this.

That's my take on it, like it or not.

[Wotan]

Everybody flew "timidly" in real life.

Timid pilots were typically grounded and on occasion even court martialled.

Flying to live has nothing to do with flying scared.

[Urchin]

Originally posted by DipStick
Since you started this thread... When I think of timid pilots the first thing that comes to mind is the "412 Runstangs", the "JBs" and a few others. With the notable exception of jonnyb and JB42 - who both can actually fly/fight with the best of'em.

For me and many others I think, it simply comes down to 'how much time we have to play' and 'how much fun ie: how many fights we can get into' in that time.

Furballers want to get the most bang for their buck. We dive right in now matter what the odds or disadvantage and do our best with what we have. It's a blast sometimes and can really get the heart pumping.

Apparently B-n-Zers like to fly only to survive or something. Now matter if they fly for a hour and only get 1 or 2 easy (cherry-picks) kills and rtb. I really can't understand this (and don't waste your time trying to explain it). I don't think alot of furballers understand it either, hence the many threads like this.

That's my take on it, like it or not.

The "name" pilots from the 412th are fairly good.  That means the ones I know by name, anyway.  The do fly "E-style".. but they know how to fly well enough that you aren't waiting 2 minutes between passes, they can keep the heat on and still avoid unnescesary risks.  There isn't anything wrong with that, in my book.  

The Jabores, on the other hand....  basically the are the epitome of the timid pilot, in my book.  Defensively, they only move I see from them is a split-S to ack or friends, or a multi-sector run back to ack or friends.  Offensively, one or two of them is good enough that with the support of 3 or 4 other guys they can get some kills.  The rest of them are pretty hopeless, imo.

[Canaris]

I dont know about anyone else but furballs, I think, is the best part of Aces High.   Having a even fight with large numbers of people together just blasting each other out of the sky is fun and still having to watch your six to stay alive.  

But to your thing about the complaining, yes I agree the complaining gets outrageous but I can see why.  If your engaged its usually with people of the same altitute and speed so there isnt a real advantage over one another.  But if a guy engages at high altitudes and just BnZ's, its hard because once you kill the guy your on, he will just keep BnZing because he has the speed and altitude over you rather than the pilot just taking his pilot into a dive and join the fight.  When he goes up, the other pilot might follow him up and somone else might blast on the rope or if you break off to engage someone else, the BnZ'er might just engage you when you least expect it to "cherry pick."

So either way there's nothing that can be done unless the pilot is willing to dive down into the furball rather than just BnZ.



Canaris

[Clifra Jones]

Originally posted by Fruda
My only problem is the guys who do nothing but HO attacks. Earlier today, I was rammed by a Hurricane 2D, and about 15 minutes later, the same thing happened to me, but the guy was flying a Dora.

These were two different people, mind you, neither one of them attempted to shoot me. I had tried to turn away, but they wouldn't let up.

Head-on collisions without an attempt to shoot. That's a steaming pile of fun.

Ditto, that! U had a guy (I think it was a guy) HO me open fire and when I tried to avoid him he just turned into me and rammed me. There should be some kind of suicide penalty

You have committed suicide. You must spend the next 24hrs in the loony bin. Come back when you have recovered

Granted, collisions happen but nose-to-nose is pretty obvious.