Author Topic: Can we have night back?  (Read 4774 times)

Offline SlapShot

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Can we have night back?
« Reply #135 on: September 13, 2004, 08:53:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Slap, that's hipocritical.  You're calling for utter realism during night, but you'll freak out if someone changes anything during the day.


LS ... still nothing to back this statement up ?!?!

I thought so ...
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Offline mechanic

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Can we have night back?
« Reply #136 on: September 13, 2004, 08:53:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by phookat
That disadvantage is something that trades skill for chance.  Even for bombers I think.  That's why I don't like it.

I understand you like the graphics.  Fair enough.  But when the price of graphics is gameplay, then I say stick with gameplay.

Would you like night gameplay if we removed icons and had dar only for dedicated night fighters...and then only to the extent that 1940's in-plane radar technology allowed?  The only semi-meaningful night approach, as SlapShot has pointed out.  Seriously, what would you do if that was the case?  There's only so long you can gaze at stars.

Furthermore, stars and moons etc are things that you can see in real life.  They are more impressive there as well.  Especially out in the high desert where the air is thin and the temps are warm. :)


i appreciate this point fully, and yes i would accept having no icons.

was night combat in the real war not also about chance?

would it help to change your mind if we had searchlights?

i see both sides of this discussion and both sides have fair points,

couldnt we just try it for half an hour?? :)

bat
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Offline SlapShot

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Can we have night back?
« Reply #137 on: September 13, 2004, 08:56:24 PM »
it is merely to add another element to the gameplay, which is becoming stale to say the least.

I hear ya there Bat ... no doubt ... but I don't think that night time is the solution.

I believe that it will only cause people to log off and that is not what we need in the MA at the moment. The ENY has enough people in a tizzy ... adding this would be like adding gas to the fire.
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Offline Morpheus

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Can we have night back?
« Reply #138 on: September 13, 2004, 08:58:29 PM »
The one thing i enjoyed most about having night in the MA was getting into a 110G2 loaded to the max with fuel, ammo and rockets and going buff hunting.

To be able to find buffs flying around during the night in the MA was almost a sure thing. And it was some dam good fun to blast them out of the sky with the 110G2 guns.  :D
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Offline mechanic

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Can we have night back?
« Reply #139 on: September 13, 2004, 09:55:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
it is merely to add another element to the gameplay, which is becoming stale to say the least.

I hear ya there Bat ... no doubt ... but I don't think that night time is the solution.

I believe that it will only cause people to log off and that is not what we need in the MA at the moment. The ENY has enough people in a tizzy ... adding this would be like adding gas to the fire.


thinking about it you're right.

i hope we figure something out soon though
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Offline DarkNet

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Can we have night back?
« Reply #140 on: September 13, 2004, 10:08:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MoRphEuS
The one thing i enjoyed most about having night in the MA was getting into a 110G2 loaded to the max with fuel, ammo and rockets and going buff hunting.

To be able to find buffs flying around during the night in the MA was almost a sure thing. And it was some dam good fun to blast them out of the sky with the 110G2 guns.  :D


I was probably in some of those bombers.  Man I miss that.

Offline K-KEN

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Can we have night back?
« Reply #141 on: September 13, 2004, 10:13:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
The only thing amazing about night time is the stupid "fantasies" revolving around it.


I am glad to see you are finally coming around to our way of thinking....first night time is fantacy!  Yeah, that's right!  And at this very moment at my house...it's fantacyland-in reality.  Dark and I had to drive home with car lights on.

 
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There's always these band of people who think doing the bizarre, unusual, unlikely, and untypical stuff is somehow gonna bring loads of exotic fun.

 Well, it's not. What it does is add 15 minutes of non-flying time the arena, plus additional 1 hour of heavy dusk/dawn where things are barely visible.


 You say that it adds 15 mins of non-flying time and an hour of heavy dawn/dusk.  AHAAAAAA  Good point, then it should be 30 minutes of non-flying time.  Because my missions might just be a but more aggressive!  

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And don't drag realism into this.


And apparently, you won't either!  Not even a little bit.  Yah...realism isn't for "games" just life.

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Everything in a game is selective realism. Unless there is some fundamental reason to absoultely try and hold on to reality(such as limited ammo, realistic FM, no external views and etc.) all other realism issues are for compromise with game play.


So your idea of selective realism includes many things except a concept of realism we deal with in our daily life!  And "selective" means what "you alone select! (along with a minority of folks.)  

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Having day time all day long does not make anyone log off. Having a night time does. Be it 10 guys or 100 guys.


Being vulched excessively and hopelessly makes me log off, and maybe even more people than night time does......think of that??


Quote
This forced, warped definition of "realism" does not help anything. You guys wanna talk about reality of night time in the real war? How large do you think the average portion of night fighter squadrons were, compared to normal day-time fighters?

 At night, day time pilots and planes rest. It's "night". You aren't supposed to see anything without a radar mechanism. And as much, you barely see anything in thr MA.


D-Day started with night drops, troops galore.  While many were lost because they dropped far from the target area or their gliders landed or crashed far away from their designated LZ, they still went in at night.


Quote
Except, the MA has AWACS for all fighters, and provides icons for all planes. There's no such thing as a specialized night fighter in the MA.

 So, what are we gonna do at night? Use the same planes we do at day time, to fly the same way, in doing the same stuff - the only difference is, at night you can't see anything, and the frustration factor overwhelms the fun factor.

 If there were something done to the dar systems, so there would be some real night fighters, with their own type of game play that distinctly differs from day time fighters - then having night time would make sense.

 However, since it ain't that way, we gonna use same planes to do the same stuff we do at day time, and we're gonna start to hate it because it is what it is - it sucks.



I am going to shorten this:  There is no AWACs in the MA, just normal dar.  This is true.  I believe there are a few actual night fighters in AH but not specialized.  (I can't name them though) Flying the same planes at night as we do in day is all we have for now, and 11 of you stated it's "NO" to night flight.  We need to have more variety and if this means a new arena or some other setup, then so be it.  You won't find many of us in the MA then, and I think you can count on that.  In 90 days, the MA would lose more than 25% of it attendance, which is more than CT would do.
Why, because we need variety.  Would I fly at night all the time, of course not.  But 30 minutes every 12 hours to 15 on a rotation would draw me in and many others.  But not just for the night.  
The MA sucks and it's due to it's being controlled by mob rule and the biggest squads rule. It isn't fun to arrive after a long day to up and find most of the fields porked, or defending wave after wave of attacking hoards of buffs and hvy jabos.  That is getting quite old even now.  

AND You agree if night figters were enabled then it "might" be OK.  That is a start.

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Offline Hack9

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Can we have night back?
« Reply #142 on: September 13, 2004, 10:16:58 PM »
First, I really don't get the preoccupation with suggesting that night would require standard AH radar to be taken away and replaced by on-board radar units.  Why? If radar is present during the day, then it should be present at night.  You want to turn out the lights for the enemy? Knock out their radar in the evening and keep it down and watch em fumble around all night.  All 30 minutes of it.  

Take away radar at night, and the daytime radar has to go too.  I understand wanting to promote historical accuracy...but c'mon...this isn't a historical arena.  In the CT? sure turn out the lights for night fighting and make only those with radar equipped aircraft be able to see in the dark...unless of course their side had some kind of ground controlled radar to aid them.  But main arena?  Sheesh.  P51's can fight F4U's in the MA. How freakin historical is that? Let's lay the historical accuracy thing to rest regarding radar and the potential of night fighting in the MA.  Accurate flight and gunnery models are as historical as the MA gets.

It would be cool if we had radar equipped night fighters on hand, but we don't and I doubt there are any plans to add any. But why do we thinnk HTC would have to model night fighters fitted with on board radar to bring back night?  They don't.  And people would just use the heavily armed Ju88's and Bf110's and P61's, Mossies, etc to pop gv's during the day, flatten airfields, vulch with really big, bad guns and kill CV's during the day anyway.  When radar was knocked out for a country, everybody would just up a radar equipped aircraft. There goes your historical accuracy out the window again AND there goes any incentive to knock out radar...which would be a blow against the quality of game play.  I can hear the whining already.

Why do people who like the night have to prove that dogfighting took place at night in order to bring it back?  Large scale dogfights between groups of single engined fighters probably didn't happen at night any more often than kamikaze dive bombing B17's took out CV's during WW2.  The difference between those two type of events though is that single engined fighters were capable of flying and fighting at night and sometimes did (even if it was to intercept bombers), and it was highly unlikely that a B17 would make an even remotely suitable dive bomber.  If it was possible (not historical) for an aircraft to do it, it should be allowed in the game.  If not, then it shouldn't be allowed.  It was possible for "day" fighters to fly and fight at night...so it should be allowed if HTC brings back night operations, without need for the addition of any specialty aircraft or modifications to the country radar system.

Why is it the night lovers would be the one's that have to go HTH or have their own arena created?  The MA is designed to support strategic play.  If you want to dogfight exclusively without interruption, go to the DA.  That's what it's there for.  There's already an arena designed specifically for furballers, yet I guess the numbers are in the MA, so that's where the action is.

But the MA is intended for general game play.  Strats are there, cities, ports, towns, airfields, etc.  These are not soley intended to be nice scenery for those that love to dogfight.  They have an effect on the game: resupply, radar capabilities etc.  The MA play has begun to devolve into a free for all, first person shooter type team deathmatch...with a really great flight model.  Some very cool features of the game are going un-noticed at least and apparently largely unappreciated.  

I think most people who would like to see night come back, don't simply want to revive night time operations to look at the stars and the big fat moon.  They want to try and bring back the strategy of fighting the "war" and forcing the reset.  Night is something that forced a change in gaming tactics for a half hour or so, and interrupted the furball mentality long enough for the strategically minded to make a contribution to the arena and play the game in a way that matters to them.

As it stands.  Bombers still bomb.  Strat guys still strat.  GVers still GV, but the day...and thus the game...is owned by the furballers.  It would be nice if the night could be once again owned by the bombers and guys that like to fly fighters in the dark to try to catch them.  The new terrain would also help GV's do some really cool base takeovers and stuff under the cover of darkness as well.  Night time has a lot to offer the open minded that are willing to try something "new".  

And if you don't like the night?  Go fly in the DA or CT,TA or do some HTH for 30 minutes.  It won't kill ya, and when you come back...maybe some pretty cool guys will have resupplied some bases, bombed the crap out of the enemy's strats, and got things set up nicely for your dawn furball patrol.



PS. If dedicated night fighters ARE a possibility for the future in AH2, I suggest:  Radar equipped Me262!  SWEET!

Offline DarkNet

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Can we have night back?
« Reply #143 on: September 13, 2004, 10:33:52 PM »
Hack9

Well thought out.  

I agree 100%

Offline K-KEN

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Can we have night back?
« Reply #144 on: September 13, 2004, 11:02:44 PM »
Well thought out and presented! :aok  But if I had to, I'd suggest the MA be renamed to "Fighter OPS".  And let them have at it!  Then set a new MA and call it......"Anything goes!"  ;)  Clouds, heavy winds, NIGHT, and NO WHINERS ALLOWED!   :D

Quote
Originally posted by Hack9
First, I really don't get the preoccupation with suggesting that night would require standard AH radar to be taken away and replaced by on-board radar units.  Why? If radar is present during the day, then it should be present at night.  You want to turn out the lights for the enemy? Knock out their radar in the evening and keep it down and watch em fumble around all night.  All 30 minutes of it.  

Take away radar at night, and the daytime radar has to go too.  I understand wanting to promote historical accuracy...but c'mon...this isn't a historical arena.  In the CT? sure turn out the lights for night fighting and make only those with radar equipped aircraft be able to see in the dark...unless of course their side had some kind of ground controlled radar to aid them.  But main arena?  Sheesh.  P51's can fight F4U's in the MA. How freakin historical is that? Let's lay the historical accuracy thing to rest regarding radar and the potential of night fighting in the MA.  Accurate flight and gunnery models are as historical as the MA gets.

It would be cool if we had radar equipped night fighters on hand, but we don't and I doubt there are any plans to add any. But why do we thinnk HTC would have to model night fighters fitted with on board radar to bring back night?  They don't.  And people would just use the heavily armed Ju88's and Bf110's and P61's, Mossies, etc to pop gv's during the day, flatten airfields, vulch with really big, bad guns and kill CV's during the day anyway.  When radar was knocked out for a country, everybody would just up a radar equipped aircraft. There goes your historical accuracy out the window again AND there goes any incentive to knock out radar...which would be a blow against the quality of game play.  I can hear the whining already.

Why do people who like the night have to prove that dogfighting took place at night in order to bring it back?  Large scale dogfights between groups of single engined fighters probably didn't happen at night any more often than kamikaze dive bombing B17's took out CV's during WW2.  The difference between those two type of events though is that single engined fighters were capable of flying and fighting at night and sometimes did (even if it was to intercept bombers), and it was highly unlikely that a B17 would make an even remotely suitable dive bomber.  If it was possible (not historical) for an aircraft to do it, it should be allowed in the game.  If not, then it shouldn't be allowed.  It was possible for "day" fighters to fly and fight at night...so it should be allowed if HTC brings back night operations, without need for the addition of any specialty aircraft or modifications to the country radar system.

Why is it the night lovers would be the one's that have to go HTH or have their own arena created?  The MA is designed to support strategic play.  If you want to dogfight exclusively without interruption, go to the DA.  That's what it's there for.  There's already an arena designed specifically for furballers, yet I guess the numbers are in the MA, so that's where the action is.

But the MA is intended for general game play.  Strats are there, cities, ports, towns, airfields, etc.  These are not soley intended to be nice scenery for those that love to dogfight.  They have an effect on the game: resupply, radar capabilities etc.  The MA play has begun to devolve into a free for all, first person shooter type team deathmatch...with a really great flight model.  Some very cool features of the game are going un-noticed at least and apparently largely unappreciated.  

I think most people who would like to see night come back, don't simply want to revive night time operations to look at the stars and the big fat moon.  They want to try and bring back the strategy of fighting the "war" and forcing the reset.  Night is something that forced a change in gaming tactics for a half hour or so, and interrupted the furball mentality long enough for the strategically minded to make a contribution to the arena and play the game in a way that matters to them.

As it stands.  Bombers still bomb.  Strat guys still strat.  GVers still GV, but the day...and thus the game...is owned by the furballers.  It would be nice if the night could be once again owned by the bombers and guys that like to fly fighters in the dark to try to catch them.  The new terrain would also help GV's do some really cool base takeovers and stuff under the cover of darkness as well.  Night time has a lot to offer the open minded that are willing to try something "new".  

And if you don't like the night?  Go fly in the DA or CT,TA or do some HTH for 30 minutes.  It won't kill ya, and when you come back...maybe some pretty cool guys will have resupplied some bases, bombed the crap out of the enemy's strats, and got things set up nicely for your dawn furball patrol.



PS. If dedicated night fighters ARE a possibility for the future in AH2, I suggest:  Radar equipped Me262!  SWEET!


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Offline simshell

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Can we have night back?
« Reply #145 on: September 13, 2004, 11:21:21 PM »
GREAT POST HACK!:aok
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Offline K-KEN

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Can we have night back?
« Reply #146 on: September 13, 2004, 11:43:00 PM »
HiTech.........c'mere.........what will it take, what do you want from us??  We need you and your voice too.  Give us a reason why it cannot be resumed and/or why it isn't doable.  I think it is, and we are voicing our desire to have it back, even in a limited way. This debate is ongoing and the numbers support bringing it back.  Please review this and bring it back! I emplore you, sir.

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Offline phookat

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Can we have night back?
« Reply #147 on: September 13, 2004, 11:45:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mechanic
i appreciate this point fully, and yes i would accept having no icons.


I am curious as to what anyone could do in this case. :)  It is very likely that, in all 30 minutes, even if radar was on, you will simply not make contact with anyone, at any time.

See, that's sort of the conundrum here.  The point of night is that you can't see anything.  If you can't see anything, nothing is going to happen (except milkruns I guess).  But if you include icons, then you are defeating both the purpose of icons and the purpose of night also...so you end up (as Kweessa said) doing the same things you do in the daytime, only half blind.  That is not realistic, nor IMO is it fun.

Quote
Originally posted by mechanic
was night combat in the real war not also about chance?


Sure.  Does it belong in a game?  IMO no, no more so that the crushing boredom of 10 hour flights.

Quote
Originally posted by mechanic
would it help to change your mind if we had searchlights?


Well...  perhaps.  In that case we have a situation where attackers are seen, but defenders are invisible.  Doesn't sound like it would really work all that well.  Would look cool though.

Quote
Originally posted by mechanic
couldnt we just try it for half an hour?? :)


LOL hehe. Well if it does come back, I won't complain ("complain" means "demand that it be removed" :D).  Even if it turns out I don't like it, which is pretty likely, I'll most likely just head to the CT for a half hour.

Offline phookat

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Can we have night back?
« Reply #148 on: September 13, 2004, 11:50:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hack9
First, I really don't get the preoccupation with suggesting that night would require standard AH radar to be taken away and replaced by on-board radar units. Why? If radar is present during the day, then it should be present at night.


Well, OK, let's say radar is kept on, but icons are turned off.  Clearly the idea of icons is completely contrary to the idea of night.  Would it still be fun for you?

Quote
Originally posted by Hack9
I think most people who would like to see night come back, don't simply want to revive night time operations to look at the stars and the big fat moon.  They want to try and bring back the strategy of fighting the "war" and forcing the reset.  Night is something that forced a change in gaming tactics for a half hour or so, and interrupted the furball mentality long enough for the strategically minded to make a contribution to the arena and play the game in a way that matters to them.


OK, we're back on this topic.  In what way does night promote "strategic play"?  It allows people to milkrun bases easily.  This I would say is not a good reason for night.

Quote
Originally posted by Hack9
As it stands.  Bombers still bomb.  Strat guys still strat.  GVers still GV, but the day...and thus the game...is owned by the furballers.


How do you come to this conclusion??  Furballers are off doing their own little thing between two close bases...all the rest of the map is available for strategy!   There is absolutely nothing stopping stratters to buff and resupply in daylight.   And if "strategy" means "milkrun", there's *plenty* of places to do that too, except sometimes on small maps.  If you grab some alt in your buffs, no furballer will touch you regardless.

As far as the strat/furball thing, daylight allows both types of play.  Night only allows one.

Offline Flayed1

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Can we have night back?
« Reply #149 on: September 13, 2004, 11:59:35 PM »
Good post hack:aok
I want to respond to the (they didn't use regular planes as night fighters)  
  I have a book somewhere of actual acounts of the AVG and they often had to take there P40's up to defend against Jap night time raids of Zeke's and bombers. I don't think the P40 had dar did it??? :)
  I know this is an early war example but ya can't say it never happened.
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