Author Topic: Two reasons AH2 doesn't work  (Read 2639 times)

Offline -tronski-

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2004, 04:47:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
Perk B17's, yeah right. While Ponys, LALAs go unperked.
Never and shouldn't happen, thanks to the AH gods.


Perk '17's, bombs, formations...geez, why don't we just ban them completely and make everyone jabo!

Lately I've done plenty of 6-8k runs in B-26's attacking towns...how is that not historical? How is that not fun?

386th Bomb Group B-26:

6th Jun '44: Target: Normandy Beach US 1st Army alt- 6000 ft
7th Jun '44:  Railway SE Lire alt- 3000 ft
15th Jun '44: Laval Marshalling Yard alt- 3000 ft

 Tronsky
« Last Edit: September 21, 2004, 04:52:54 AM by -tronski- »
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Offline elc7367b

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2004, 06:08:42 AM »
Why is it that people want to put a limit on other peoples game play.  Is it just because you dont like the way its done?  Why dont we put a limit on how high someone can  come into an area? Or why dont we put a limit on the number of players attacking a particular field/base?  You name a tactic and I bet you could find someone that disagrees with the way its done.

Get over it and just play the game.  It is a game, isnt it?  I will fly bombers  high, I will fly the bombers low.  I will fly the bombers at medium alt too!  Low bombing is just another tactic.  I do not do the dive bomb approach with heavy bombers, just my preference not to.

Anyway, my two cents worth

Muttman

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2004, 06:52:37 AM »
Quote
Low bombing is just another tactic.


 No. It's the ONLY tactic that exists in the MA. Otherwise people wouldn't be offended by it in the first place.

 AH began out from a small game with a small experienced community whose personal way of flight did not contradict the overall realism of the game.

 Realistic environment, which makes the aircombat experience so immersive and thrilling, is what makes AH a great WW2-based air combat sim.

 However, as AH grew in numbers the way of flight has been influenced by the principles of efficiency in a massive team-game environment, which due to the limitations of AH as a game, contradicts with overall reality directly.

 In other words, some actions are more effective than the realistic way - hence, people will not self-regulate their own actions to not hurt  the realism. They will do whatever is necessary and most effective, to win the game. At this point the "freedom to fly one's own way", drifts into dweebery, system abuse, and exploit.

....

 In reality, the "real way" was the "most efficient way" as well, because variety of factors existing.

 Daylight, low-alt bombing raids were drastically dangerous, so they massed groups of bombers at high alts to up the rate of survival and to make up for the loss of accuracy by numbers of bombs dropped. Either that, or they chose to fly small scale night raids.

 In the MA, nobody fears death. They don't care if they die or not, as long as they arrive at the target and just spew bombs whatever way they can.

 People expect certain standards and images of the game resembling at least certain bits of reality to the real thing to  find 'fun' in it. That's the heart of the simulation game. If things(the things related directly to aircombat itself) go out of hand and start to become fantasy, it starts to suck.

 The MA bombing runs suck. It makes a mockery out of people who practice to perfect the bombing system as it was intended to be. People who learn the way the system was implemented, practice making flight plans and approach paths, tinkering with the Norden-ish bombsight.

 A band of suicidal fools at 1k can NOE a base and kill all the FHs by spraying their payload and just getting shot down.... while people who want to do it right must suffer the burden of flight time, dar exposure, flightpath planning, and calibration accuracy.

 We take careful steps and hope our bomb run was precise enough to do the job, hope no enemy interceptors bounce us on the bomb run or on our way back, and hope our drop was good enough to help our own team... while these suicidal fools just up formations at 1k and fly at max speeds, squirming and wiggling, and do that same shi* over and over and over again until all the FHs are busted from the lame-prettythang deck run kamikazes.

 It's a matter of balancing the risk-effect factor. One side risks so much to do the right thing, and yet gets so little, while the other side don't care about risks in the first place, flies recklessly, and still almost always gets what they want.

Offline Edbert

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2004, 08:23:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wipass
That is the only way, great suggestion
 

They have bombsights?

Offline jbnace12

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2004, 08:30:04 AM »
The game is really starting to suck and the fun aspect is gone for me. I will be at the con whinning allot, and once I get home I am pretty much through with it unless it changes.

Offline Shamus

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2004, 08:39:55 AM »
Was defending v50 from wave after wave of noe buffs the other day, the old light bulb finally popped on, noe tiff to a60, hit 2 ord bunkers...end of problem

shamus
one of the cats

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Offline DoKGonZo

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2004, 10:29:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by -tronski-
Perk '17's, bombs, formations...geez, why don't we just ban them completely and make everyone jabo!

Lately I've done plenty of 6-8k runs in B-26's attacking towns...how is that not historical? How is that not fun?

386th Bomb Group B-26:

6th Jun '44: Target: Normandy Beach US 1st Army alt- 6000 ft
7th Jun '44:  Railway SE Lire alt- 3000 ft
15th Jun '44: Laval Marshalling Yard alt- 3000 ft

 Tronsky


Uh ... in the cases you cite, I assume people, like, y'know, survived?

Is survival part of the plane with the MA NOE attacks? No. Why drag 3 planes in like that and give away 3X the number of kills? Well, they're free and it improves your odds of lasting long enough to drop on target.

It's an abuse of why formations were put in. Perk *just* formations and then if you want to use level bombers in the way they were intended, you go up with a few friends and you have 9 or 12 '17s in the box and you are damned dangerous at 25K.

    -DoK

Offline BigGun

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2004, 10:37:02 AM »
I thought u quit all ready.

Offline Karnak

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2004, 10:54:19 AM »
The last time I flew bombers DKPotter and myself took off in Ki-67 formations.  We circled to 22,000ft and then headed for our target at full speed, 334mph.  We were swarmed by fighters and neither of us had a bomber get anywhere near the target.  I think we got one fighter between the two of us.


Lets see.  Bombers have had their bombsights whined away.  They've had their guns whined at, and now indirectly removed.  Now you want to perk the B-17 and Lanc?

You are talking about units that have practically zero survivability in AH.  If the Lanc is perk it means you will be throwing the perk points away.  You will absolutely know that none of them will be landing.  The B-17 wouldn't fare much better.

Flying at altitude is no safety meassure.  Flying at 334mph, faster than either the B-17 or Lancaster can, at 22,000ft we were easily intercepted well short of our target.
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Offline DoKGonZo

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2004, 11:12:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BigGun
I thought u quit all ready.


I thought you learned how to read already.

Offline DoKGonZo

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2004, 11:15:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
...

Lets see.  Bombers have had their bombsights whined away.  They've had their guns whined at, and now indirectly removed.  Now you want to perk the B-17 and Lanc?

...


The alternative is implement limitations on drop altitude, AOA, and so on before allowing release. Which is fine too.

Offline BigGun

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2004, 11:24:41 AM »
"And it was at that moment I knew I was done with flying AH2 in the MA for a while. Maybe a long, long while. I flew back to base, landed, said "bye" to my squadies, and logged off."

Please enlighten me on how my reading skills misinterpreted you quiting AH2 in the MA.

Offline Blammo

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2004, 11:44:07 AM »
Been said before:  if you restrict bomb release to requiring someone to be in the bombadier position, require the bomber to be in a positive G situation and limit the AoA the bomber could be at when releasing, that would be enough to stop a lot fo this.

I don't really agreed with perking formations or bomb loads.  This would just server to eliminate the use of bombers.  I don't want to see bombers go away, just want to see the a little more practically employeed.

Bombers coming in at 20K', 10K', 1000', 500', 200' AGL, no problem...bring it.  It's the dweebish fly in @ 3K and dive on your fighter hangars that is just silly.  If anything is done it should be designed to limit that behavior, not reasonable employment and use of the bombers (and their formations).
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Offline DoKGonZo

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2004, 11:53:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BigGun
"And it was at that moment I knew I was done with flying AH2 in the MA for a while. Maybe a long, long while. I flew back to base, landed, said "bye" to my squadies, and logged off."

Please enlighten me on how my reading skills misinterpreted you quiting AH2 in the MA.


OK ... you read correctly then ... so why impy I had quit entirely and for good?

Offline DoKGonZo

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2004, 12:03:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Blammo
Been said before:  if you restrict bomb release to requiring someone to be in the bombadier position, require the bomber to be in a positive G situation and limit the AoA the bomber could be at when releasing, that would be enough to stop a lot fo this.

I don't really agreed with perking formations or bomb loads.  This would just server to eliminate the use of bombers.  I don't want to see bombers go away, just want to see the a little more practically employeed.

Bombers coming in at 20K', 10K', 1000', 500', 200' AGL, no problem...bring it.  It's the dweebish fly in @ 3K and dive on your fighter hangars that is just silly.  If anything is done it should be designed to limit that behavior, not reasonable employment and use of the bombers (and their formations).


All true enough ... but perking heaviy formations could be done now, today, whereas the proper solution could take "two weeks."

The use of formations on the deck is an abuse of their intent, though, and should be treated as such. Regardless of whether B26's or whatever actually flew missions at those altitudes, there was some intent to survive back then - so that makes the argument void as there is such intent in the MA. Were it isolated to a few dweebs who didn't know any better or just liked to cause trouble it'd be fine. But it has become the dominant application for level bombers in the MA.

     -DoK