Author Topic: Two reasons AH2 doesn't work  (Read 2953 times)

Offline Killjoy2

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2004, 12:17:50 PM »
Two points.

1) The B-29 attacks on Japan were late war and at NIGHT.  B-25's were used for low lever straffing attacks as well.

2)  If this were war and the enemy was sending low level b-17 formations we would quickly put up flak batteries to discourage low level bombing.  Oh wait we had flak batteries in WB's.  They were so much fun, they disappeared.  We should try some of the other options.  

Lets try to remember what is fun about AH.  

For me it is learning the strengths and weaknesses of the WWII fighters and bombers to defeat an opponent and his squad and his country.  

Most of us love these planes and the history.   Most of us love to teach new people about the planes and how they are used.

The aspects of the flight sim that turn it from a flight sim to an arcade game make it not worth the time.

Offline Karnak

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2004, 12:20:09 PM »
I rarely see heavies dive bombing anything other than CVs.

What I see them try to do against airfields is very low altitude carpet bombing.
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Offline DoKGonZo

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2004, 01:05:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
I rarely see heavies dive bombing anything other than CVs.

What I see them try to do against airfields is very low altitude carpet bombing.


I see 'em do it vs. bases and towns all the time ... whethere they release one bomb or 20 is semantics.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2004, 01:51:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
I see 'em do it vs. bases and towns all the time ... whethere they release one bomb or 20 is semantics.

I wasn't talking about how many bombs were released.  What I see most often is bombers pass level over the field and dump bombs on it.  They don't seem to bother aiming either.
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Offline Kev367th

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2004, 01:57:09 PM »
Perking B17 formations aint gonna happen.
It shouldn't anyway, would just be insanity.
Option is to limit the bombing parameters as discussed earlier and in other threads.
Yes it will take time to implement, but it is the only reasonable solution.
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Offline Blammo

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2004, 02:00:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
All true enough ... but perking heaviy formations could be done now, today, whereas the proper solution could take "two weeks."

The use of formations on the deck is an abuse of their intent, though, and should be treated as such. Regardless of whether B26's or whatever actually flew missions at those altitudes, there was some intent to survive back then - so that makes the argument void as there is such intent in the MA. Were it isolated to a few dweebs who didn't know any better or just liked to cause trouble it'd be fine. But it has become the dominant application for level bombers in the MA.

     -DoK


Well, I understand where you are coming from, but I have a few thoughts about the comments you made:

1)  True, the perking could be done today, but could perking only formations be done?  My understanding is that perkies apply to an individual plane so you would be paying perkies whether you took 1 or 3 bombers up.  This might have the adverse effect of discouraging bomber use for any purpose (other than strat target bombing, but even then...).  Just seems to me you would have to set the perkies pretty high to make them any sort of deterent to 'JABO' bombers, but doing so would really cut into people's willingness to use them at all...even correctly.

2)  Whenever I go out on a sortie in AH, I intend to come back.  Most people I fly with and around intend to come back.  I am sure there are the UT/Quake gamer types that just up and die.  However, I think a large number fo the AH mentality still have the "get back home" mentality.

3)  Do we have any data to suggest that it isn't the dweeb element that repeatly uses Lanc and 17s to JABOs or pitch bomb?  I mean, I know it happens, but exactly how many people do that on a regular basis?  My own experience has been that I tend to see the same people doing that sort of thing over and over.

4)  While low level wave after wave of bombers is annoying, it is incredibly effective in AH.  If it had been this effective in WW2, it probably would have been used more often.  Even so, it was used quite a bit.  Point is, if they can mount the force needed to push on a base with wave after wave of bomber formation, then it is up to the otherside to defend, not cry "foul."

I do understand what you are saying, DoK, but let me say it again: it is not the use of bombers that it the problem...it is the incorrect use of them that is the problem.  If you remove people's ability to use them wrongly (divebombing, pitch bombing, etc), then you remove the problem.  Perkies won't do it.  If the problem is as wide spread as you say, then there are a lot of people that would probably be willing to burn perkies to do it.  The solution has to cut much deeper than just making it cost.  You have to do something that makes it impossible.

Bring the wave and wave.  It sucks, but I am willing to deal with it.

HTC, change the code so bombs can't be dropped from the cockpit, while is a steep climb or dive (greater that 5 degrees, for example) and prevent bombs from releasing when pulling negative or 0 Gs.  That would force level bombers to behave like level bombers.
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Offline bustr

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2004, 02:01:19 PM »
Put up flack alleys out to 3-5 miles from the bases. Just means the buffs have to plan their first runs to account for taking out flack. Tanks could have missions to clear the batteries for the buffs. Oh I'm sorry...that means working together.
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Offline hulk31st

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« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2004, 02:21:44 PM »
No one uses historically correct tactics. The MA has created its own tactics due to player wants and needs.

More players want to blow things up quickly then want to spend 20 minutes climbing to altitude, calibrating a bombsight and then getting shot down on their bomb run.

When I started playing, I would climb to 15k, calibrate and get shot down or miss my target. It wasn't long until I started looking for another way to bomb and hit targets. Low-level bombing is one way.

My suggestion: accept low-level bombing and enjoy the game!
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Offline xHaMmeRx

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2004, 02:33:35 PM »
IMHO - Breath some new life into B-26s, Ju-88s, Ki-67s, A-20s.... limit B-17s and Lancs to bombing over 10k AGL.

Medium bombers bombed low all the time, no question about it.  Heavy bombers did it very rarely (although I saw a show on the History Channel last night about low level B-29 straffing  missions in Korea).

Limiting the heavies to higher alts (10k was really only considered medium alt, but let's not quibble) would bring the planes more in line with their historical role. Nobody is limiting anybody's ability to come in low and hit an airfield.  Nobody is forcing all buffs to be used up high.

Of course, I believe fighters should be limited to 500lb bombs, too :p

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Offline Killjoy2

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2004, 03:29:56 PM »
Spawning a manable Flak battery just like we spawn a tank is not a bad idea.  

It would be great fun for tanks to defend and destoy.

The Flak batterys could be deployed on the approaches to medium and main bases with enough stopping power to discourage low level buffs.  

And hey!  Its historical too.  


Ummm back to problem #1
Can we modify the ENY so that when a country is down 15 bases it gets full planeset without regard to its numbers.  When one country gets down the other countries gang up on it.

Offline DoKGonZo

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2004, 04:07:50 PM »
Blammo ... from what I've read bomber crews really didn't like going that low. You got a face full of AAA of all calibres, you had no chance to glide home (and maybe not even bail), fighters were going to come at you fast and from above. Maybe B25's and B26's ... but a big 17 or 24 ... nuh uh.

Maybe you fly bombers expecting to land, but you have to admit that most of the guys doing this do not. And that's the problem - its because of them that something you like doing, and take pride in doing well, is under scrutiny.

The bigger problem is that the longer things like this persist, the worse things get in the MA. And they're pretty bad as it is. I don't suggest perking formations indefinately - only until the right fix as we discussed gets implemented.


KJ ... my original enhancement suggestion for ENY was that it only applied to fields you captured (i.e. you didn't own them at the time of the map reset). That solves the problem you describe completely. Super easy to implement too.

    -DoK

Offline Preon1

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2004, 10:46:36 PM »
I'm sure this has been said before, but...

Allow all bomber formations spawning at a base at least a fixed distance from the nearest enemy base (say 50 miles) to be able to spawn at a given altitude and airspeed (say 10000 feet and 100mph).  That will alleviate the boredom of climbing to altitude while increasing the interest in bombing.

Offline MOIL

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2004, 11:34:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by elc7367b
Why is it that people want to put a limit on other peoples game play.  Is it just because you dont like the way its done?  Why dont we put a limit on how high someone can  come into an area? Or why dont we put a limit on the number of players attacking a particular field/base?  You name a tactic and I bet you could find someone that disagrees with the way its done.

Get over it and just play the game.  It is a game, isnt it?  I will fly bombers  high, I will fly the bombers low.  I will fly the bombers at medium alt too!  Low bombing is just another tactic.  I do not do the dive bomb approach with heavy bombers, just my preference not to.

Anyway, my two cents worth

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Sounds all good to me,  just quit calling it a SIM

Offline 999000

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2004, 12:40:50 AM »
Killjoy:
The direction of the game is and has been to passify the fighter jocks....largest share of paying  customers...It is my impression that most organized missions in main arena for base captures don't even use heavy bombers now. Bomber pilots are relatively rare....in the MA, and the structure of the game will define the function or lack of function for heavy bombers.
On realizism........not sure where anyone would begin or end on this conversation.....
On how easy or gamey it is to fly noe bombers...its not...its alot easier to fly higher alt and land more kills...I find noe to be much more challenging!..........things like Ack, terrain, manned guns, GV's and fighters with high e make it tough.
Maybe we should just get rid of all bombers????lol
..then GV's????
Or is the really reason people don't like the few bomber pilots we have is that it messes up the fighter pilots who want to vulch fields for their scores and ranks??
BTW do you HAVE TO ATTACK a low level bomber if you don't want to??
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Offline Arlo

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Two reasons AH2 doesn't work
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2004, 12:58:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MOIL
Sounds all good to me,  just quit calling it a SIM


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