Training Arena etiqette

[Nash]

I think it's gonna be ok now.

[humble]

WW

...Only trouble I've caused so far is to raise questions people didn't want raised, point out what they themselves said and take 2 accounts away from HTC which pleased Nash, Hmble & av8tr no end...

I answered your original post in an open and above board manner...

>>WW, it was av8r that got you way back when. he's a great guy who spends a lot of time in TA helping out/dueling/furballing. That was an inside joke and he immediately backed off.<<

>>Only issue i see is clarification of firing rules. To me plenty of room for everyone..i I do think bomber practice should be away from main flight area but there was no real damage that I saw.<<

>>The vulching was very limited and everyone backed off when "warned". Only possible problem i'd agree with was Ace02..but that more of a rudeness issue<<

Later in response to a second post...

>>I don't think WW's post is/was "wrong" with regard to details however I do disagree with the perspective entirely. To me these were relatively isolated events, not a pattern of activity.<< ...also...>>Personally I'm thrilled that some of the best sticks in the game can be found in the TA from time to time. Since they will almost universally crtique/comment on action this is a boon to any newbie. This is an combat sim, without someone to fight you cant learn. I'd hate to see the day when you had no one to practice against who would offer constructive advice.
<<< ...followed by...>>Now, on the other hand harassment DOES happen and it does need to be delt with. Someone vulching (really vulching) or repeatedly stalking an unwilling foe can't be tolerated. I think I've seen two real incidents and intervened in both.<<<

From my view, I didn't "gang-bang" you at all, or run from any of the point's that you raised. In fact I went out of my way to praise the positive aspects of your involvement. I simply questioned some of the statements you made that differed from my first hand knowledge of a specific event. I didn't challenge anything I wasn't there to personally witness.

As for being "pleased" you bailed...no not really..but you can't please everyone. I have 2 small kids (1 with a developmental disability)..a 60 hr+ gig that puts a gun to my head every day and this is a source of enjoyment for me in an often troubled world.

Out of the blue..you jump down MY throat..for things I have a limited ability to control..and start an series of what I do consider personal attacks...so pardon me if I get pissed.

The bottom line is i'm in the TA every week trying to make a positive contribution to this community.

And truthfully, more and more I'm the one wondering if I'm wasting MY time,  it's sure not worth being dragged thru the mud over it.

[av8r]

Humble,

I'm bummed out after reading your last post. You seem really upset over this.

I just want to say that in my opinion, after spending many hours with you online, I know that you are one helluva GREAT TEACHER, a really fun guy to fly with, and against,  
and a real asset to the AH community.  

You shouldn't let the above roadkill get to you. Some BASTARDS have nothing better to do so they create "issues" to debate on this board and eagerly watch the thread count rise ("ooooooooooh look its over 70 now") as they continue to reply to well intentioned and honest posts, with personal attacks designed to ellicit more responses, ONLY TO SATISFY THEIR SICK NEED GET "ATTENTION".

It don't mean nuthin bro, let it go.

As I stated before, "Real Life" (RL) has more than enough stress, we don't need more of it generated here.  

Most of us are here to RELEIVE stress and blow off steam built up during a tough day in RL.

A very wise and talented man once sang:

"Won't let the bastards grind me down"
(Van Morrison, "Days Like This" album, song, "Raincheck")

Words to live by, IMHO

Hang in there bud,

Av8r

[Nash]

What av8r said, exactly. Yer presence in the TA is fantastic humble! *One* guy has a different opinion. *One guy*. Fahgeddaboudit.

[Lizard3]

Quotes from Humble:

You are only interested in spreading falsehoods and creating         problems...what a sad life you must lead.

As for being "pleased" you bailed...no not really..but you can't please everyone.
If i was being polite I'd say I'm sorry to see you leave...however I feel like answering this one personally.      Don't let the door hit you in the Ass.

                   
Quotes from Nash:

As a matter of fact I do. I *enjoy* my time in the TA. I want to *continue* to enjoy my
                    time in the TA. It's a great atmosphere. Why do ya feel the need to stink it up so bad?

                    "As for Icons, I had no idea one could switch it to a plane type. I'm a Newbie moron!"

                    Er... that was *supposed* to be funny right? Actually, yes - alt-I toggles 'tween names/plane type/off. I'm a moron for not knowing that you didn't read the readily available and extensive help files included with this sim? So I'm supposed to be flying around trying to read yer mind, lookin' for gaping holes in yer knowledge on accounta the fact that you were too lazy to help yourself.

Quotes from Av8r:

(Heaven forbid!)...
                    partaking in a FreeForAll at F1, I'll be having a good time and releiving some of my REAL
                    LIFE STRESS.

Quote Me:

Personally, I haven't spent more than 2 hours in the training arena. I cant understand why anyone beyond newbie status or those genuinely interested in helping people would spend more than a few hours in the TA.

To Nash: guess what I heard the other day...Quake 3 Arena is out!!! Give it a shot, sounds like your style.

To Humble: Guess what, I hear Unreal Tourney is looking for a few good trainers. The old ones quit because they could type fast enough to get anything across before being killed.

To Av8r: I suggest a playboy, a tube of KY, and a blow up doll for all that stress.  

Really guys, this is rather pointless. Their is a training arena and a main arena. One is for newbies and the other one is....really....a Free For All. Really. Try it some time.....  

Robert E Leezard

[This message has been edited by Lizard3 (edited 04-27-2000).]

[bloom25]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's about all I can say after reading this whole thread for the first time tonight.  Somehow the fact that a thread that started off with good intentions and then managed to degenerate to this point worries me...  

I'm not going to try to post anything more than that, and frankly, this thread should be closed.  I've flown with (and against) many of you since beta and since I've been here only one other thread that I can think of that degenerated to this point.  It too started out with good intentions.  In the end I think we learned something from that thread, I hope the same will eventually be said about this thread.  (FYI:  That thread was called "B-17 Flight Model" under the general discussion forum.)

Unfortunately HTC has lost 2 paying customers as the end result of this thread, and all I can say is why?  Maybe some good can come of this ... I sure hope so.

------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[This message has been edited by bloom25 (edited 04-26-2000).]

[RAM]

All in all, Lizard, this was the most stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc post I've ever seen or readed in my life.

If you want to listen a tip, follow this one: Know people before talking about them. Judging people for one experience or post, or whatever, is of 1 year old childs.

Thats why I say that the stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc is the post ,not you...unless you keep that stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc line.

Hope you get it. Respect people and the people will respect you.

I sincerely expect an apology about your post to those guys you insulted in that way. If you dont...well then you'll fall into the same level of your words (you already know:stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc )

------------------
Ram, out

Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen"

   

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 04-26-2000).]

[Lizard3]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
All in all, Lizard, this was the most stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc post I've ever seen or readed in my life.

Response: I feel that my post wasn't <very> offensive nor stupid. I was basing my post on the quotes I listed at the top. The one part that was truly offensive, was truly said in jest. Hence the " ". I would never suggest a blow up doll as something to take your stress out on when there are so many other avenues for relief of this type. REAL women. Gun ownership. Prozac.
  I've read worse, stupider, and more offensive posts here in this forum and to be exact, in this thread.

If you want to listen a tip, follow this one: Know people before talking about them. Judging people for one experience or post, or whatever, is of 1 year old childs.

Response: I did, I saw 3 or 4 posts of thiers. Question: Isn't calling me a 1 year old child offensive? Should I be offended?

Thats why I say that the stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc is the post ,not you...unless you keep that stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc line.

Response: Thats a cop out. Calling my post stupid, etc etc is calling me stupid etc etc as the one is the product of the other.


Hope you get it. Respect people and the people will respect you.

Responce: I get it, I got it. I generally dont shoot my mouth off about stuff like this, but I get a bit riled when people start picking on other people just for stating their opinion. THATS childish. When people use derogitory language and try to box up people with real concerns I HAVE to put my 2 cents in. If people state out in the open that they like FFA's in the TRAINING areana alarm bells immediately go off. Me, I love a good furball. In the Training arena? Get real?

I sincerely expect an apology about your post to those guys you insulted in that way. If you dont...well then you'll fall into the same level of your words (you already know:stupid, offensive, idiotic...etc etc etc )

Response: If I have "greatly" offended anyone, please forgive me. Let me know who you are and I'll shoot off a personal appology forwtith. If I've mildly offended many, shocked a few into realizing their rudeness, their haughty attitude, or even made someone chuckle a little, GOOD! Mission accomplished!!!

Lizardicus

------------------
Liz
"Their are only two types of aircraft-fighters and targets"

[WW]

Hmble,
Obviously, you've had time to cool off as have I.
I'm not gonna go into who said what, because when it comes right down to it, I said things that pissed you off and you returned the favor, (or visa versa, I don't know which)

For my part, I precieved some attacks on the verasity of my concerns and responded in kind (not the best plan I guess) and again, I'm not gonna list any here or get into a competition over weather or not that preception was well founded. That's how they where precieved.

When Nash came into the picture, I precieved all hell breaking loose. Since that time have been thanked for leaving by just about everyone but my squaddies.

It comes down to this. I NEVER had a personal problem with you or your training. or any of the trainers. My problem was with Newbies as fishbait. I was told, "Ask before your shoot" and was getting shot down all the time without being asked. The first thing I wanted to know was why a trainer let me get shot down by a third party when I asked to attack him. You answered that VERY MUCH to anyone satisfaction. The rest was supposed to be about helping the Fresh newbies who may have the same lack of understanding as I was recieving here.

That was my objective. Completely, Totally. I am not a complainer. I've been with AW for 1.5 years and never had anything like this. I just felt Newbies needed help.
The only reason I provided names, was because I don't know anyone from anyone else. Who the sticks are who the newbies are?!?!?! You we'rent seeing any of it and seemed to need something to help you see what I saw.

I never had a problem with you or the other trainers as people or as trainers.

It started out as a question, moved onto a debate of the issues and an effort on my part to bring you information that you could evalute. Then the s**t storm hit and it's been flying ever since. It's about the only thing flying that hasn't been shot down in here.

I said 2 things in this thread somewhere of far greater importance.
1. I never use discussions cause they rarely go well. But I was unable to email my concerns to HTC.
2. Something to the effect of some people speak up and some just quit.

I shoulda stuck to what I knew.


[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-26-2000).]

[humble]

First...av8r&NASH,RAM...thank you for the kind word's. Each of you has spent considerable time in the TA and your opinion (good or bad) counts because of it.

Lizard3, your post(s) are childish and you have no standing with me...your not on may "radar" as a member of this or any other flight sim community.

Now,bloom25,Voss,Rude,ghosth...I've probably missed a few...you all have my respect...and truthfully I'm upset that your opinion of me has been impacted by this chain of events. The issue of the role if any of a FFA component in the TA is an issue for the community...not a few individuals. I signed up as a trainer, and I was/am perfectly willing to be judged by all on that basis.

The fact that some of you feel the biggest issue here is the loss of a "customer" is somewhat disturbing.


One thing missing in this last go around...I spent a good 45 min or so training wiz right before this last blowup...at WW's request.

[WW]

Like I said Hmble, I never had any problem with You. AT ALL, in my mind we we're having a debate. Thats part why I called on you, but also to try to say, "I don't mind asking you for help, I'm not angry"
I spent 3 hours that night giving Wiz the Basic ACM he needed to make use of the training you had given him. The need could not have been detected had I not been an observer in the cockpit with him that whole time you where trying to help him. (I'm not questioning your Training!!!!!!)

Later that same evening was when I had my encounter with Nash. I STILL didn't feel badly towards you.


The rest is history



[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-26-2000).]

[humble]

WW,

I just read your post, and I appreciate it.
I've tried to take the high road and hope that for the most part I have. I do understand your frustration with certain aspects of the TA, I do hope that my posts on these threads reflect that to some degree.

I do (and did) agree that some changes were/are required. I was and do feel removing the FFA component is/was a mistake.
My anger/concern was the effect of your thread on how I'm perceived by members of our community that haven't even been in the TA. Over the last week i've learned alot about how the peacekeepers in Serbia must feel   .

The bottom line is is really simple, I've done everything I can to conduct myself in a professional manner. I didn't orchestrate any attempt to create problems for you (To the contrary I mentioned you in the TA forum as someone to consider in the future if you volunteered).

I flew AW in AOL since it started there. You can check me out with YES (think he's a trainer there) among others in AW.

I just as soon bury this thread on an amicable last note. Nothing you've done/said is truely offensive to me on a factual basis. I do feel you've placed an intent on certain actions thats not fair to those involved. I'll stand by those I know..just like your squadies stand by you...I sincerely believe that there's a place...and a need...for all of us to make this community grow. On that basis I do hope you'll reconsider your decision to leave.

PS...send wiz back, he does need some more work  

[This message has been edited by humble (edited 04-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by humble (edited 04-26-2000).]

[humble]

WW,

As a last comment, you did the right thing with your 1st post...If you read the 1st few posts they started an important dialog that is changing the TA...hopefully for the better.

As for the rest, I guess that's why even baseball has brawls...I'm appreciative of those who've stood by me...and seen your squadie's concern over your loss.

I guess Rodney King said it all...

" why can't we all learn to live togeather"

Think I'll end my comments on that note.

[Rude]

I just wanted to say a thing or two if I may....
The loss of WW may mean very little to others but he was a new squadmate in the 13th TAS. Whatever happened in the training arena prolly shouldn't have but it did.

My one experience flying there was unpleasant and not encouraging in any way...I was verbally told to take a hike by a vet that if he knew who I was in WB's, I know he would not have addressed me the way he did.

He was using the so called training arena for his own enjoyment instead of promoting it to new users as a help and a teaching aid.

I know most of the trainers and fly with and against them often....they were not involved. I just think that it is unfortunate to have lost a good pilot who was excited about leaving AW3 and joining our community.

Strafing folks on the runway is in no way going to benefit anyone in the MA enviroment. It teaches no skills whatsoever, and it seems to have chased a few promising prospects away from our community.

I would hope that someone can do something to improve things there....I for one have personally trained new squadmates myself in the MA rather than to send them to the TA where a potential problem could arise.

Thats All

Rude Out!

[WW]

Hmble,
Wwe keep hitting this forum at the exact same time of day, It's hillarious.

Like I said, I was having a debate and trying to get you information to evaluate. I wasn't trying to trash you. (I think we came to agreement somewhere in here.) But I can see what you mean about being trashed.

My rep (not that there was much of one anyway) has been completely f**ked up in this. Like I said, I've never recieved so many thank you's from so many that I don't know.

I introduced Wiz to AW about 3 weeks ago (his first flight game) and AH about 2 weeks ago. I wouldn't be surprised if he subscibed anyway dispite all this. We both like the game.

But I get the feeling that anyone carrying the name WW in AH will be in for quite a lot of trouble from here on.

Not that you did anything directly to cause it. Thats just the way it went.