Training Arena etiqette

[Lizard3]

Originally posted by humble:
Lizard3, your post(s) are childish and you have no standing with me...your not on may "radar" as a member of this or any other flight sim community.
 
   WOW! Another one calls me childish. Funny, I thought the "hit you in the bellybutton on the way out" quote was far and beyond childish. Infantile comes to mind.
   Likewise, you have no standing with me.
You shoot your mouth off at people who disagree with you. Call me a mirror of your reflection.  Sir, I will not suck up in the hopes that I shall find myself on your "Radar". You and your Radar can take a hike. Flight sims(online) 6 1/2 years.
   My experience with trainers is limited. I tend to learn on the fly so to speak. I have had a few fun flights with Joker of the old old old "Green Hearts". I do not know how you do as a trainer. I do know you are not a people person. Your insecure, you can't handle critisism.
   I've been a member of this community for over 3 months. I Love it! I also left that piece of hacked trash AW3. As you can see, I dont post much. I tend to keep my  mouth shut and try to learn what I can. The fact that I actually did post in this thread may hopefully  show you the degree to which what you and others have said here has affected me.
   
RAM, I believe you misread what I was saying in my original post. The first half was quotations from others. I have gone back and edited it to help clarify what it was I was trying to get at.
 

<BAH!>

[Ghosth]

I am very glad to see that a measure of reason has returned to this discussion.

I am also very glad to read that the biggest source of the problem is being dealt with.
To me that was the FFA at F1.

Nuff said on that score.

Nash, In no way did I mean to attack you. I did however in my mind raise a valid question. If you mistook my intention then I apoligise. By the same token I feel I am owed one by you.

Humble, keep up the good work. Customer's are important, each & every one of them. When I read or get the impression that the weak are getting shoved around by the strong you'll find me voiceing my opinion EVERY time!

If anything that I posted at any time to you upset you, or was anything but the truth then I apoligise. I have nothing but respect for the job you trainers are doing with the very limited resources you have.

[Nash]

Quote:

"Strafing folks on the runway is in no way going to benefit anyone in the MA enviroment.
It teaches no skills whatsoever, and it seems to have chased a few promising prospects away from our community."

-Rude

Unquote

See.

This is why I got involved WW.

I'm gonna speak on my take of events.

In yer absolute zeal for Nailing Them Damned Bastages To The Wall fer the horrible INJUSTICE, the TYRANNY and the complete HAVOC that rears its ugly head in the TA...

...you accused me of doing this.

Repeatedly.

It proved to be completely, absolutely, baseless. I took issue (rightly) and that's when you claim this whole thing turned into a *real* mess. Gawdamned right it did. Obviously it struck a chord with someone (Rude is still bringing this up), and my name's attached. Unfair - and I took ya to task (rightly).

This was long after ya berated the Trainers (yes, that's right, those people who give freely, *voluntarily* of their time to HELP, fer chrissakes).

I have no issue with you *personally*. Hell, I don't even *know* you. You calling me a moron *repeatedly* rolls right off my back. But if you feel the need to back up yer claims of anarchy in the TA by dumping on the trainers, you've made a huge mistake. If you need to back up yer claims by focusing on me, then ya made another mistake. I could cull yer posts right now for so much garbage and unsubstantiated vitriol that... but I won't.

Now I'm gonna speak to you.

Somewhere in yer head you need to dig deep and find that area where common sense, tact, diplomacy, and just gawdamned human courtesy.... reside.

You will change *nothing* by flying around, building a film vault of so-called infractions. You should have understood from the get-go that things are a little undefined here. I've met about a dozen people who've been here a shorter period than you who have a much firmer grasp on things. It's what we make of it. Even the trainers are just now getting their legs, as it's a new and difficult spot for them. Why, in the ONE week of your AH experience, you chose to immediately dump on everyone, is baffling.

I aint *gonna* let ya off the hook -  because there's a lesson here. When it comes to flight sims, and the whole flight sim community, respect is *earned*. Don't matter if yer the oldest of masters, or the youngest of baby seals. That's perhaps more important than anything you could learn in the TA, in which case I hope you've found this whole charade enlightening.

From my perspective, disappointing is the more aproritate word.

One more thing - as a community, our memories are notoriously short. Suck it up, focus on the positives, tackle the negatives *constuctively*, and innabout 2 weeks we'll all be talking about how great a guy you are.  

[Nash]

Yes Ghosth, I do indeed apologize. The TA I care very much about was being attacked, and I no doubt countered that by being overly defensive... to you. Again, the sincerest of apologies. It was never about you, really, it was the state of things, and you wandered into the crossfire  

I hope everything's cool  

[Ghosth]

Fine here Nash, I think part of our problem is that we both can be very passionate about AH. Nothing wrong with that in my book.

As to WW, I think he's had a chance to cool down & take a 2nd look. Back off & give him a second chance. There has been enough of hot words for any week.

Let it die & see what happens.

[humble]

hehe...the thread that won't die

Rude,ghosth...impression is everything it seems...the FFA was never 1/10 the problem you guys percieve it to have been (IMO). I'm certainly sorry your 1 experience there was a bad one Rude.

WW, my whole initial point of "anger" was the impact on av8r...and probably myself as well...I've spent many hours in the TA and know what a positive presence he is.

Strangely, I do realize that your intensions are/were good, and the thought you feel you've been "trashed" as well saddens me.

Nash didn't show up in any way till way down the thread...again...a great guy & very positive TA contrbuter...sucked in and trashed over an isolated incident.

My hope is that we all move on in a positive way. As I stated earlier I took your 1st post as a very sincere critique...misguided ...but sincere. I don't think anyone involved will hold a grudge for long.

Av8r, NASH you guys are in the dictionary under "foxhole buddies"

WW I hope we run into each other again...in AH.


Oh, lizard...nevermind

[Nash]

Quote

"I don't think anyone involved will hold a grudge for long."

Unquote.

- Humble

So completely true. No matter how things blow up on these BBS's, it never really *sticks*.

One of my best buddies and I became friends only after we got into a fight. The principle (or is it principal?) locked us up together for the entire day in the janitor's room cuz our moms worked, and couldn't pick us up. Spent the whole day finally getting to know him.

He was *wrong*. Despite 4th and 8, we had *clearly* gotten a 1st down on that play.     But in a broader sense, we both cared so much about taking our teams to victory, that... well... anyways... it's a pretty good indication that we fought because we wanted the same thing. When all was said and done, it didn't matter that we battled over a few inches. His character in sticking up for his team said so much more.

And... if ya remove alla the crap... that's kinda what's going on here.

I hate the fact that alla this confusion is happening. It *saddens* me when something as cool as a flight sim so incredible as Aces High can be the basis over which we fight.

We *do* want the same thing, WW, I reckon.

Hopefully, with clearer guidelines (a step HTC just recently undertook - but didn't go far enough imho) we can bring an end to this kind of misunderstanding.


[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 04-27-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 04-27-2000).]

[RAM]

Lizard, the post is clearer now...but I readed it the way it was. Excuse me but I still think that you were greatly offensive there to some people. Even making some jokes (the one about Av8r ,IE) may be offensive and If I was him I'd be really offended and upset for such thing.

Look, people. We are attacking each other and saying BIG and OFFENSIVE things about each other...and, you know what?...its useless, because in the matter that really matters we agree all. The matter is that newbie harassment on TA is a fact, wanted or not, approved or not.

Said that I want to make clear that ,IMHO,a FFA is NOT acceptable in TA. Combat is accpetable, but not undeclared attacks. I am sick and tired of flying H2Hs with anyone to be shooted by someone that didnt say a word about it. if a FFA is happening, people that wants to be apart from it are to be harrassed. My suggestion is that if people wants a FFA, declare it and MOVE TO OTHER FIELD AND COUNTRY. Remember that TA is TRAINING arena, so the training people have more rights, and A1 is the best field to start a training, cuz its hi altitude.

I also find unacceptable the bombing of runways on A1. People are taking off from there, damnit. NEWBIES that dont know EVEN TO TAKE OFF from a ok field!!!!!!...give em 2 big holes in the runway and they wont take off in their life!!!!!
and no, dont tell me that training people can move to other fields. As I said before, training arena is to TRAIN before to fighting or bombing,so the moving guy MUST BE the bomber, not the newbie training.If you want to fight a H2H, warn the guy. If you want a FFA, move to other field. If you want to bomb a field, MOVE TO OTHER FIELD!

Ettiquete of Training arena? easy...I propose to add these 6 points to the message when you come in the TA:


1)Dont attack without warning

2)Dont harass people that dont want to fight.

3)Dont bomb the field from wich people are  taking off

4)If you want a Free For All, declare it and the field that will be the scenario of it...ALWAYS far from the one used for training.

5) NEVER,unless in a FFA agreed to allow it, VULCH PEOPLE, nor FIRE PEOPLE ON THE RUNWAY

6)And over all, remember that Training people and Trainers have ALL THE RIGHTS that FFA-ing people hasn't. You are to follow and respect Trainer's orders. You are to respect other people's desires of fighting or not, and training or not.


Every one that doesn't follow these easy 6 norms, are to be filmed, or their acts saved in screenshots that will be promptly sended to HTC.


I think these points make clear what will the TA can be and what CANT be. If we all agree I think this can be mailed to HTC for them to put it on TA message.

Any thoughts?


 

------------------
Ram, out

Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen"

     


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 04-27-2000).]

[WW]

Nash,
I am trying desperitly to let this thing die.
Some of your points I can agree with. Some are dead wrong.

Listing the quotes that illustrate this would do nothing but get things going again.

Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[Nash]

Ram,

See the thread in this forum called "The message window is a great idea".

Some of your points aren't bad, but I think we've already come pretty close to a fix here, and I don't wanna move backwards.

Nash

[WizOfClay]

In my earlier post, I never really addressed the issue of "proper etiquette" in the TA so here is MY two cents worth on this topic...

As many of you have already stated, this discussion has degenerated from being what I, and many of you probably think is an important topic that my friend WW has took to the floor…  His intentions were innocent enough.  He was simply inquiring about proper TA etiquette after a certain incident left a bad taste in his mouth…  Further down the discussion, it went from being a question of what was the proper TA etiquette, to what the TA was really being used for, and a lot of name calling progressed.  Suggestions were made as to what fields should and shouldn’t be made an FFA, which fields newbie’s (like me) could go to do some actual training by ourselves or with others, and which fields to stay clear of if we didn’t want to be engaged by anyone.  All these suggestions are great but they are still unwritten “rules”.  Since WW first posted this discussion, HTC seems to be getting the idea, and are trying to make the proper changes to clarify what the TA is for.  I think they did a great job in trying to implement some changes as soon as they did, but as both Nash and RAM have pointed out, work still needs to be done with the wording… but it’s a step in the right direction I think…  We can squeak, complain, and call people names, till hell freezes over, but to me that is all pointless.  To me, our suggestions and feedback should be directed at HTC, and from the looks of it, they are listening  .

The words that I try to live by is this “Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you.”…  for this scenario, unless otherwise stated, ask before you shoot out of politness… please… I hate flying around minding my own business only to have to try and evade someone when I don’t feel like fighting.  Yes I acknowledge that the FFA does exist and will move to a different field if I want to practice with a trainer or just by myself, or try to fly up to 10-15K to watch and observe the action. But by the same token, I’d expect for others to leave me alone if I request it (for those times that I would like to observe at a closer range).  That is all that I ask…

Yes Nash, you and WW, AND all of us as well, do want the same thing…  a place to go to have fun, and learn.  So everyone, please bury the hatchet, Humble and WW seem to have, it doesn’t look good to newbie’s to read stuff like this, because it leaves a bad impression of what flight combat sims are all about…

Oh and Humble, I do plan on being back, but I’m away on holiday’s for two weeks… yes I do know that I need A LOT more help   and you did a great job the first time… thanks again!!!

RAM, I think all your points would really help in de-mystifying the rules of the TA are great!  I hope that HTC puts all those points in their intro message…

Wow… didn’t realize how long this was… and for those that got this far… thanks for reading it  

[Lizard3]

Momma said,if ya hafta say something meen, always say something nice.  

Nash, The city of Vancouver was/is the nicest city I have ever visited in my life. The cleanest, freindliest by far. The worlds fair was great also. You should be proud.

------------------
Liz
"Their are only two types of aircraft-fighters and targets"

[Nash]

Yeah, it's a great city. I moved here from NYC a couple years ago, and there's a huge difference  

I notice that WW is from Toronto. Which leaves me to conclude; do not blame the confusion, misunderstandings, and raw emotions that lead to this thread. Blame Canada  

[WW]

Actually Nash, I should clear something up.
When I last posted, I was focusing more on your post 4-27-2:15 AM.

I neglected to recognize your second post of the same day 4-27-4:17 AM.

My sincerest appologies for not mentioning it at the time. My attention was focused on the earlier post.

Your post of 4-27-4:17 AM was very well recieved. Thank you. and again, sorry for having been blinded earlier by the first one.

The first nice post you had with my name in it and I go a miss it..DOH!


[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-27-2000).]

[Rude]

All past things are forgotten  

WW....get your can back to the 13th, an I'll promise to teach you how to kill all of these guys

Cyas Up!

Rude Out