Rumsfeld survival and the shot down 9-11 plane in Pennsylvania

[JB88]

when it rains, it pours.

[TheDudeDVant]

Originally posted by Elfie
There has been no compelling evidence presented in this thread, only speculations.

wtf have you been in this thread? Eyewitness testimony from 6 different independent people is what?? Wtf does that mean to you? Six independent people lie for what reason? Oh oh oh.. I get it.. They all got together before 911 and agreed they'd try to rebuke the government's very next statment.. No matter what it was..

You dont believe the government lies to the population? Well, if possible for such feeble minds to comprehend, I suggest abit of reading about the 9months of governmental propaganda placed forward to the American population prior 1968s Tet offensive.. Its all about control and public perception.. Cause everyone knows, perception is reality..

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
wtf have you been in this thread? Eyewitness testimony from 6 different independent people is what?? Wtf does that mean to you? Six independent people lie for what reason? Oh oh oh.. I get it.. They all got together before 911 and agreed they'd try to rebuke the government's very next statment.. No matter what it was..
 

You ever watch late night TV?

Ever see those taped testimonials for the weight loss miracle products?  Or the quit smoking in one day herbal pills? Thats pretty much the level of credibility the conspiracy theorists operate on, really where is the proof that any of those people are telling the truth, can any of it be backed up or fact checked - prolly not... Also would you belive these thories if you put them to same level of criticizm you seem to put towards the 911 commisions report?  Prolly not.  Both the theorists and late nite TV ads operate on the premise of telling the gullible and naive something they want and need to belive in.  Thats the real issue here, you need to belive.

[TheDudeDVant]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You ever watch late night TV?

Ever see those taped testimonials for the weight loss miracle products?  Or the quit smoking in one day herbal pills? Thats pretty much the level of credibility the conspiracy theorists operate on... And both operate on the premise of telling the gullible something they want and need to belive in.

This is why I dont answer you Grun.. This is just rediculus.. Those people are paid! I just thought I would 'attempt' at helping you understand how the world operates.. I now remember that an impossibility.. Back to my regular scheduled ignoring of Grun..

[GRUNHERZ]

No kappa, those people are mewrely induced to lie because it meets thir motives - in this cade financial motives.

The conspiracy theory writers are just doing the same.  For example you say there are "6 eyewitneses"   well what evidence do you have that those are actually 6 real people and not some characters made up by the author of the theory? Just like the characters created by the producers of the TV commericials?  In fact if you think about it if anything its much simpler to make up fake characters on a written website pitch than to actually arrange real live people to fake testimonials on camera...

The problem with those theories is that pretty much anyone can write up a website that gives out their tale without challenge and find gullible people to buy it.

People like you.  Its really no different or more credible than the late nite miracle stop smoking commericials.

[TalonX]

An F15 or F16 could easily have made it to PA to shoot down the plane in the time alloted.  Not even a remote question.

Did it?   I don't think it even matters.   Personally, I think the government should be forthcoming on all matters.  I hate being treated like we can't handle the truth.  We can.

I'd hate to be the pilot who had to do the shooting, if in fact it had to be done.  God bless him.  I am not sure I could live with it, even though I believe it would have been the right thing.

The good of the many outweigh the good of the few, or the one.  Sad, but reality.

[TheDudeDVant]

wow.. perhaps there was no flight 93.. I mean.. I didnt see it..

I mean if its easy to make up stuff on one side.. And obviously easy to see how easy it is.. lol That must hold true on both sides..  Or wait.. No no.. the govenment NEVER makes up things.. for any reason..

[lazs2]

dude... I am reading a very good book called "A better War" that talks about the three tet offensives extensively...  

I would be interested in what you are talking about so far as the government lies is all about.

and dude... the governmernt lies to us all the time but in this case (93) there seems to be no reason nor any compelling evidence to make a case that they are.  

"eyewitnesses" seen shooters on the grassy knoll and aliens in their backyard and any number of things...  they may all be right but they have little or no other evidence nor..

dare I say it?  does it matter to me one way or the other.

Say that there was some super secret shooting down of 93 for one reason or another...   How does that affect me and world events in general?   If we all know that governments lie then....

Are you saying that this is a case for.... less government?   I would have to agree at that point or... are you saying that it is only a case for less conservative government since adminestrations like the klintons were never dishonest?

never have figured you liberals out.... you want less government when the conservatives are in but are willing to have a allmost martial law when the lefties are in.

lazs

[TheDudeDVant]

   dude... I am reading a very good book called "A better War" that talks about the three tet offensives extensively...

Lazs,

Im reading a book by Daniel Ellsberg called 'The Pentagon Papers'. A very well documented analyas between 1946 and 1974? of America's involvment in the Vietnam war. He smuggled some 7000 pages of studies done during the Johnnson/Nixon administrations and lies continued by each and their staffs. He worked for the CIA, Rand corp, directly for the secretary of defence as well as directly for the POTUS. He also was in country during the vietnam war with well documented accounts. A very good read for what the government will do and is capable of doing in a case leading to war.

The lies I was referring to in my post were the lies given the American people by their government of the actual situation of Vietnam all up until the Tet offensive. How the war is winable and almost won.. All lies.. According to Ellsberg, most in the know at the time knew the war unwinnable for various reasons. Yet the LBJ/Nixon administrations continued with plans of escalation in the shadow of telling the public they were attempting withdrawal. Even an attempt at withdrawal with 'honor'.. None knew exactly what with 'honor' meant to Nixon, yet had circumstances not happened how they did, the war could have advanced even through Nixon's second term..

[TheDudeDVant]

Are you saying that this is a case for.... less government? I would have to agree at that point or... are you saying that it is only a case for less conservative government since adminestrations like the klintons were never dishonest?

No, I am saying this is a case of needed accountability and disclosure to the American public.. We can handle the truth..

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
We can handle the truth..

Except you...

Flight 93 was brouht down by its passengers.

The Pentagon was hit by flight 77.

The WTC compley was brought down by other two flights.

[lazs2]

dude.. I do not believe that the war was winnable in vietnam if it were fought the way that westmoreland and the politicos wanted it fought..   Abrams changed everyrthing....

It was not only possible to win but we were absolutely winning it.   Abrams told everyone on his staffs that he wanted no false info of any kind... So far as I know, He never allowed any false military info out after he took over.   Most books focus on everything up to tet and westmoreland... westmoreland did not nor never could understand the war he was running..

Abrams had it down.   He was winning the war but the momentum of the anti war movement created by westmorelands blunders defeated him before he could win it.

The north was on it's knees but the anti war activists snatched defeat from the very jaws of victory... they can't be blamed tho... The early inept handiing of the war is to blame.

as for all the tet offensives... we were clueless on the first one because westmoreland was clueless.... he was not fighting the right kind of war.   We were very much prepared for the next 2 weaker tets and they were even worse failures for he north than the first one was.... plus... Abrams told everyone exactly what and when to expect the last two.

too much to go into here but suffice it to say that Abrams had a winning plan that was working but that he ran out of time before it could be sucessful.

[TheDudeDVant]

Lazs.. I will read a book you offer for my education if you will read this book.. agreed? Just name it my friend  8)

This book has opened my eyes to the buracracy (even if I could spell it) more than anything in my short existance. Even Johnson's justification for going to war was false and for 2.5 years we fought and bombed vietnam under these reasons. We produced the first attacks on our destroyers in the Leyte gulf and the second attacks can not be proven 'fact' in their existance..  Daniel Ellsburg gives a shocking account of the time.. He was a supporter of the war.

edit: you can even listen to him on CD.. haha

[rshubert]

Originally posted by Monk
and Jimmy Hoffa is buried at Giants stadium.

That's one possible location.  Do you know where he is?

[slimm50]

Originally posted by genozaur
quote:And also I still can't believe that the USAF interceptor planes are piloted exclusively by the fast-promoted former National Air Guards airmen.
 

Firstly, for some unexplainable reason I don't trust the flight qualifications of "the fast-promoted former National Air Guards airmen" whoever those poor chaps can be.

And secondly, just take an inch closer look at the whole USAF "interception of Flight 93 operation" as it was presented by the media.
 I can still vividly remember how much perplexed I was with all those newscasts about THE TOTAL INABILITY OF THE USAF INTERCEPTORS TOGETHER WITH THE NORAD TO EVEN FIND THE LOST \HIJACKED FLIGHT 93. Then, after they had finally located it, NOBODY SEEMED TO BE ABLE TO SHOOT IT DOWN THOUGH IT PRESENTED BY ITSELF A HUGE AIRBORNE TARGET MOVING IN THE DIRECTION OF DENSELY POPULATED AREAS AND, POSSIBLY, TOWARDS A NUCLEAR POWER PLANT. AND IT WAS ALREADY KNOWN THAT THE FLIGHT 93 HAD BEEN HIJACKED TO CARRY OUT THE NEXT SUICIDE ATTACK.

I still can't believe these media reports. Sorry for that. Maybe my 2-year experience with the Soviet AA regiment gives me the wrong angle of view on this whole fable of UNDETECTABLE AND UNDESTRUCTIBLE FLIGHT 93.

Proof that a little knowlege is a dangerous thing.