Author Topic: Question to Finns (Read 29656 times)

genozaur · « **Reply #525 on:** March 20, 2005, 09:04:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by mora
As far as I'm conserned you can keep that wasteland. The 1918-1939 border was mostly what it had been historically. You accepted the borders in 1918 and over 20 years later you got different thoughts, and stole a big chunk of land from us.

Even if your claims are true you shouldn't really expect anything from us.

No way, Mora.
We must talk here about Sweden and Russian Empire. But even deeper historical events are helpful, like the spread of Christianity (Orthodox Cristianity from Russia and Protestantism from Sweden) among different finnish and karelian tribes.
Finland and Karelia were Swedish colonies. Then Russia defeated Sweden and in order to secure the safety of the Imperial capital, St Petersburg, Russia gave both Finland and Karelian territories (much of the latter was already within the borders of Russia) a common statehood in the form of so-named Great Princedom of Finland which was incorporated into the Russian Empire. Russian Emperor Alexander I even gave this Princedom a separate Constitution which was an unprecedented thing for any other Kingdom, Princedom or other territory in Russian Empire.
Until Finland was a protectorate within the Russian Empire the things went on pretty smoothly. Later Bolshevik Vladimir Lenin was hiding in Finland from the Russian police. Then Lenin signed Independence Act for Finland within the boundaries of former Princedom.
So, as it happened, even the ancient Russian lands of Novgorod republic (territories captured and held for several centuries by Sweden) were given to the newly independent Finland together with some regions with Orthodox Christian population of several former ugro-finnish tribes, commonly known in Russia and the USSR as Karelians.
The result was not good because the industrial city of Leningrad (up to 15% of USSR military hardware output) was within the range of artillery fire from the abroad. But this was only the problem for the Russians, as the Finns viewed it when the WW II was imminent. And Comrade Stalin solved this problem. If Finland has any questions about it today, she should not worry. President Putin will solve any problem.
Very likely analogy can be found with the established by Russia statehood of Romania, which has a province named Moldova, and there is a newly independent state of Republic of Moldova, which during Soviet times was given the territory of (Ukrainian) Moldavian autonomous republic.
So, the small girls prefer to have all their wedding presents to stay with them even after the divorce. Just the same as the Ukraine who not only successfully retained for herself the Crimean peninsula but even managed to grab from Russia the island of Tuzla.
In my opinion, childred should not play with matches. And the little girls should be spanked on a regular basis. Otherwise they keep on playing with nice toys always forgetting that not all the toys are their own.

Fishu · « **Reply #526 on:** March 20, 2005, 09:07:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda
Soviet civilians criminally held in Finnish forced-labour camps in occupied Soviet Karelia in 1941-44.

Hahaha, wasn't that something the USSR did for three decades?

You bloody criminals

genozaur · « **Reply #527 on:** March 20, 2005, 09:18:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Fishu
Hahaha, wasn't that something the USSR did for three decades?

You bloody criminals

Fishy, you are a jerk. It's a fact.
What do innocent civilins have to do with NKVD criminals from Stalin's entourage ?
And you laugh at these inocent people many of whom died ?
You are simply a jerk. And this is not an insult.

genozaur · « **Reply #528 on:** March 20, 2005, 09:23:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
Red side continues to argue that the sun may or may not rise in the East. Blue side continues to laugh at Red side.

Toad, I'm glad you strongly oppose the Red Dragon of China claims that they invented the Sun and can switch it off at any time they want.

Fishu · « **Reply #529 on:** March 21, 2005, 01:00:51 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by genozaur
Fishy, you are a jerk. It's a fact.
What do innocent civilins have to do with NKVD criminals from Stalin's entourage ?
And you laugh at these inocent people many of whom died ?
You are simply a jerk. And this is not an insult.

Umm wtf... what are you raving about?

If you happen to have a problem with understanding, I'm laughing at Boroda.
Hes the one talking about slave camps, something which the USSR utilized for over several decades.. (hmm, when did i come up with 'three decades')

You should first try to comprehend what you read, before going on raving about it.
Laughing at civilians.. wtf.. how did you come with that!?

bikekil · « **Reply #530 on:** March 21, 2005, 03:01:42 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by genozaur
OK, Toad, but I warn you that the phrase about "every nation" was your mistake.
Expect some protests.

As for Katyn', I can repeat my opinion (just the opinion) that the Polish combatants (they included not only officers of the regular Polish Army but the police officers too) were executed by NKVD troops following the orders from the 'Kremlin highlander'.

With big degree of certainty this act was triggered by the radiobroadcast from London of the speech of the then (not elected by the general Polish public) head of Polish government in exile Sikorsky
who made a strange statement fully equalled to the declaration of war on the USSR (though the legitimate leaders of Poland did not declare war on the USSR even during Soviet-Polish armed hostilities). Other nuances on this topic you can find in my posts here and there.

Sikorski since 28.IX.1939 was chief of Polish Army in France, two days later a prime minister in our ONLY goverment.
At this point till '89 there was no other Polish goverment... other then commie puppies that were never elected by Poles and server SU not Poland. That goverment in London was the only goverment who spoke with the Allied forces (including Soviets).

But let me ask you - do you think that after Soviets attack our lands on 17.IX.1939 we had to declare the war with them?
Another question - does (in your opinion) any statement is a good excuse to kill more then 20000 people? (especially when Soviets attacker Poland, not opposite

)

just checking...

Angus · « **Reply #531 on:** March 21, 2005, 07:09:58 AM »

And that was a correct check as well.

Raven_2 · « **Reply #532 on:** March 21, 2005, 08:51:52 AM »

to Toad

What can you say to us about incident at Waco on April 19, 1993?

Quote

Many people believe that David Koresh (or the Branch Davidians) were responsible for the deaths of the 74 men, women and children who died in the inferno at Waco on April 19, 1993. This is the story that the FBI put out. It is a lie. The guns they had were legal. The local sheriff investigated and found no basis for complaints against them. These were law-abiding American citizens, even if they thought differently to most other folks. They trusted the U.S. Constitution to ensure their political rights, but they were murdered by agents acting under the authority of the U.S. government.

Quote

Around midday two U.S. military pyrotechnic devices were fired into the main building, igniting a fire which (because of the holes in the walls allowing the wind to gust through) spread rapidly through the complex of buildings and became an inferno. 74 men, women and children died — including twelve children younger than five years of age. Fire trucks were prevented by the FBI from approaching the inferno. After the compound had burned down the BATF flag was hoisted aloft to signify 'victory'. Subsequently the burned-out ruin was razed in an attempt to remove all evidence of this premeditated murder of innocent civilians by agents of the U.S. government. Thus occured an atrocity which many Americans believe could never happen in their country.

>>74 men, women and children died — including twelve children younger than five years of age.

Your own government murdering your own people, Toad. And all they wanted - it`s just abidance of their constitution rights...

Staga · « **Reply #533 on:** March 21, 2005, 09:19:06 AM »

link to original source?

Raven_2 · « **Reply #534 on:** March 21, 2005, 09:23:27 AM »

to Staga

http://www.serendipity.li/waco.html

Well, maybe this site would be a bit paranoid for you... But there is a LOT of links on other sources there.

Toad · « **Reply #535 on:** March 21, 2005, 09:36:59 AM »

Here Raven, take this very slowly so you don't get even more confused than you already are and so you can see the difference between Waco and Katyn.

The US government made a huge mistake at Waco; however they DID NOT intend to kill all the Branch Davidians from the very start. They intended to take them into custody as prisoners.

Our Attorney General admitted it was a mistake, that it was an incorrect action. She took responsibility for the disaster. There were hearings in Congress over it and and there was an independent investigation.

Further, remember the Branch Davidians were not tied-up prisoners; they were armed and shooting at the FBI/ATF officers. Four ATF officers were killed in a previous raid on the compound. The Branch Davidians were actively resisting.

Now, compare that with Katyn. The Soviet Government DID intend to kill the Poles. They ALREADY had them in custody as prisoners. The Soviet goverment did not admit responsibility for about 60 years. Some die-hard Soviets here STILL do not admit responsibility. The Polish POWs were tied up and shot in the back of the head; they were unarmed, they were not resisting.

Lastly, you won't find an American that doesn't admit the government was responsible for killing the Branch Davidians.

It seems easy to find Russians that will not admit the Soviets killed the Poles at Katyn.

See the difference? Of course not! You're still in denial of the obvious truth.

Raven_2 · « **Reply #536 on:** March 21, 2005, 09:55:00 AM »

to Toad

>>Here Raven, take this very slowly so you don't get even more confused than you already are and so you can see the difference between Waco and Katyn.

Katyn? Do you think I try to compare this? Nah. I just wanted to show what word "democracy" and "constitution rights" means to the government of your country. My post was not linked to all of your Katyn-related posts, but to Sciaf "western democracy is always good" posts. Cause Waco was in USA, I addres my post to you, not to Sciaf himself (I think then he don`t know about this).

And again. Katyn NKVD MURDERS ISN`T PROOVED BY ANYONE EXCEPT GEBBELS. Gebbels and nazi propaganda is your favorite source of information? When Poland/Russian investigators prove this, I accept this. I don`t deny proved facts. But Gebbels is not the kind of guy I want to trust. And Gorby... He is one of most unpopular politics here. Most of the russians really hates him. He destroy our country just for "friendship with the West". He could did ANYTHING to improve negotiations - even lie about our past. So, again, when there would be court decission - I accept it.

But now there is only versions and guesses. I accept version that poles were killed by nazi. When there were no more versions but truth (after court decission) - I accept the truth, even if it would differ from my version.

Fishu · « **Reply #537 on:** March 21, 2005, 10:20:11 AM »

Why are we all over Katyn... as if the USSR didn't commit any other crimes.

Too bad that the USSR took good care of hiding the evidence during the several decades, unlike the westerners.
If in the west 20 people were brutally killed, everyone and their sheeps will or at least can hear about it, but if someone in the USSR decided to kill 1000, then only rumours might be all whats left and the people who knows, doesn't want to end up like the people in the rumours.

Wonder why we finns ever resisted the communism... you guys just make it sound sooo good.
Or why the baltians weren't happy with it... hmm.. I wonder.

Toad · « **Reply #538 on:** March 21, 2005, 10:22:19 AM »

You won't find an American that doesn't admit the government was responsible for killing the Branch Davidians. The proof is undeniable. The government admits it made a mistake.

It seems easy to find Russians that will not admit the Soviets killed the Poles at Katyn. The proof is undeniable. It took a half a CENTURY for the Russian government to ADMIT IT WAS RESPONSIBLE.

Deny all you like; the world KNOWS who did it.

Angus · « **Reply #539 on:** March 21, 2005, 10:29:14 AM »

Oh, Katyn is a juicy one. Some 20.000 Polish officers disappearing, 4-5000 being found and excavated by the Germans after they had invaded the USSR, while the fate of the other ones was unknown for a long time. A rather absolute claim by the Polish.
And we're all over it. Salting the wound.
Why? Because :

1. There are people on these boards that probably still deny it.
2. There are people on these boards that did deny it.
3. There are people on this board that denied that it could have been more than those excavated by the Germans in WW2
4. There are people on these boards that claimed that the remaining missing ones had all returned sooner or later, or had written home etc.

The remaining 15.000 were discovered a couple of years ago in another location near Smolensk. Putin has forwarded a public excuse. Case basically closed, just not for all.