Author Topic: Question to Finns  (Read 29662 times)

Offline lazs2

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Question to Finns
« Reply #540 on: March 21, 2005, 04:47:29 PM »
for the russians on this board... How many people do the soviets/russians admit that stalin killed?

lazs

Offline genozaur

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Question to Finns
« Reply #541 on: March 21, 2005, 06:10:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bikekil
Sikorski since 28.IX.1939 was chief of Polish Army in France, two days later a prime minister in our ONLY goverment.
At this point till '89 there was no other Polish goverment... other then commie puppies that were never elected by Poles and server SU not Poland. That goverment in London was the only goverment who spoke with the Allied forces (including Soviets).

But let me ask you - do you think that after Soviets attack our lands on 17.IX.1939 we had to declare the war with them?
Another question - does (in your opinion) any statement is a good excuse to kill more then 20000 people? (especially when Soviets attacker Poland, not opposite ;) )

just checking...


Bik,
Do not fool yourself with the ONLY Polish government sitting on their high stools in London and "electing" an idiot for the Prime Minister in exile.

Your government (before it fled abroad) and the Commander-in-Chief ( before Sikorski) were wise enough not to declare the war on the Soviet Union even when the armed border conflict between the Red Army and Polish border guards was in progress.
In this regard, Sikorski's London declaration of war on the USSR (1.III.1940) was far more than a simple stupidity.
But even Sikorski's idiocy does not justify the death in spring of 1940 of thousands of Polish officers, policemen, and other combatants (15,131 in Katyn and 7,305 in the jails in western Ukraine and western Belorussia).

If you would have read all my posts here in this thread you could notice that I was also mentioning the death in 1919-1921 in POW camps on Polish territories of about 58,000 of Red Army soldiers captured by the Polish Army during the Polish-Russian and Polish-Ukrainian wars of 1919-1920. Red Army soldiers were held in these POW camps in the conditions not corresponding to Geneva conventions, treated inhumanely, beaten, robbed, female POWs raped.
I did not mention before the unidentified number of Red Army soldiers of German ethnicity who surrendered at the battlefield to the Polish Army and were simply shot on the spot by Polish forces without any trial or even reason.
The majority of the Stalin's entourage were the people who took part in the Polish-Russian and Polish-Ukrainian wars of 1919-1920. And they were perfectly aware of the role of the Polish Army command in the mistreatment and in the death of those tens of thousands of Soviet POWs. So, the Polish side reaped its own harvest of death.
Still, I haven't heard a single word spoken by a Pole about these Soviet POWs. Not even a single word of acknowledgement of these facts.
I think that it is the time for the Polish people to think about finding at least a word of apology for starving to death and killing the Soviet POWs  as well as many thousands of civilians in Ukraine during the years of 1918-1921.

P.S. The horrors that the Polish Army and the Polish special forces brought to Ukraine in these years deserve a separate description.
The following are the words of the then future minister of foreign affairs of Poland in the 1930-s J.Bek [Jr.] adressed to his father J.Bek, then the vice-minister of internal affairs in the government of Paderevski (the story is about the time at the end of 1918 when J.Bek [Jr.] and his comrades in arms after fulfilling an intelligence mission in Romania, Moscow and Kiev were returning to Poland through
Quote
"Bolshevized Ukraine") :
Quote
"In the villages we killed everybody to a single person and burnt everything when we had a slightest suspicion of insincerity. I personally worked using the stock [of the rifle]." [end of quote]
As it was witnessed by M.Kossakovski, to kill or torture to death a 'Bolshevik' was not even considered to be a sin.
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"In the presence of general Listovski ([Polish]commander of the operational group in Polesie) there was shot dead a boy only for seemingly evil grinning". One of the Polish officers
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"Shot people dead by tens only because they had poor clothes on and looked like Bolsheviks ... there were killed about twenty refugees who came from behind the front lines ... these people were robbed, whipped with the lengths of barbed wire, their skin was burnt by hot iron rods in order to get false confessions." Kossakovski also witnessed the following 'experiment' :
Quote

"into the person's cut open belly they had sewn
a live cat and made bets on who would die first,
the human being or the cat." [end of quote] *
I guess, this is enough for making not only cruel Stalin but anybody mad at the Polish officers and their "gentlemenlike" conduct.
We don't know exactly how many of these monsters died in Katyn.
-------------------------------
* Quotations were borrowed from the book by Mikhail Mel'tiukhov. Sovetsko-Pol'skiye voiny (Soviet-Polish Wars) 2nd Ed., Moscow.: Yauza, Eksmo [Publishing Houses], 2004, pp.42-43 (ISBN 5-699-07637-9)

Offline Raven_2

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Question to Finns
« Reply #542 on: March 21, 2005, 09:59:16 PM »
to Fishu

>>If in the west 20 people were brutally killed, everyone and their sheeps will or at least can hear about it, but if someone in the USSR decided to kill 1000, then only rumours might be all whats left and the people who knows, doesn't want to end up like the people in the rumours.

Katyn was a part of Nurnberg process. There were official investigation in USSR. "only rumours"? BS.

to Toad

>>The proof is undeniable.

So why there is still not court decission on that? Uhm, forgot. There IS court deccision (USSR investigation). And it say that poles were killed by nazi.

>>It took a half a CENTURY for the Russian government to ADMIT IT WAS RESPONSIBLE.

Russian government is 13 years old. Russian government is not Soviet government.

>>Deny all you like; the world KNOWS who did it.

Sure. And world knows, who genocide japans in WW2. Ask any japan about that.

BTW, *official* naming of americans (only americans) in Japan is bakugaidzin. That mean "stupid foreigner".

to lasz2

>>for the russians on this board... How many people do the soviets/russians admit that stalin killed?

Maximum ~20.000.000. It`s a western sources, numbers from anti-soviet propoganda during Cold War. ~8.500.000 - western sources, after Cold War. Most of this number (~3/5) died in Gulag from harsh conditions. About 2/5 - were "kulaks" - they hide food from starving people during civil war and famine 1921-1923, so they were shot.

Killed (less then 1/10)- mostly bandits, belogvardia, tzarists and so on. Many tzar officers (there were a lot of treachery from them during civil war, so Stalin don`t wanted to risk). There were a LOT of criminals after/during revolution and Civil War. So there were rule - marauders and robbers must be shot where they stand.

BTW, if you want to blame Stalin for this - keep in mind that in 30s signs "White only" were everywhere in USA and Britan had colonies (with slave labours) on the whole world.

There was no "humanism" or "human rights" at that time. So butchering and exploitation were usual things. After 1937 there were no mass killings in USSR.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 10:06:07 PM by Raven_2 »

Offline Toad

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Question to Finns
« Reply #543 on: March 21, 2005, 10:47:03 PM »
Tell yourselves all the lies it takes to make yourselves comfortable.

After all, it's how you got through the Soviet years anyway.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Raven_2

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Question to Finns
« Reply #544 on: March 22, 2005, 12:02:06 AM »
Всем русскоязычным.

Опять про Катынь, любимую (и единственную) тему Тоада. Книга про фальсификацию:
http://usatruth.by.ru/c2.files/index.html

Читаю. Вам тоже советую. Даже если считаете, что поляков расстреляло НКВД. Плюрализм мнений всегда полезен.

И ещё про Катынь на форуме:
http://forum.globalrus.ru/read.php?f=3&i=19529&t=19529

Сфрандзи "нападает", dacos разносит его (и Гебельса) "доказательную базу" в перья. Почитайте, интересно.

to Toad

At least our "lies" are argumented. And your "truth" is not.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 12:20:05 AM by Raven_2 »

Offline Fishu

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Question to Finns
« Reply #545 on: March 22, 2005, 12:31:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raven_2

Katyn was a part of Nurnberg process. There were official investigation in USSR. "only rumours"? BS.


As if it wasn't obvious, I didn't mention any particular case.
Only the cases which are not known by the russians, because nobody wanted to write about those, in fear of loosing own head in the process.

Katyn is already such a big denial for some of you, let alone the cases which of the world doesn't even know, thanks to the secrecy of the USSR.
Those are even easier to deny, yet those happened. Lots of people didn't dissapear just by their own.


Quote
After 1937 there were no mass killings in USSR.


Yeah sure...  even if you haven't heard of the things, it doesn't mean it didn't happen, it was just covered up from the public. Government controlled media and institutions are such a nice thing when you don't want things to become a public knowledge.

...and what about the slave camps? it's a hot topic when needed to exagerrate about the finns during war time, but all so quiet when it's about the USSR's slave camps.


You guys seem worse than the americans, at least I know for a fact there are good americans among the ultra conservative god-love-jesus republican people, who are not conservative, god-love-jesus people or republicans..

Might explain that the americans are at least have been ABLE to get their hands on conspiracy theories, varying aspects of the history, blah blah blah...  where as russians seems to be still using the USSR time history books at the school.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 12:34:45 AM by Fishu »

Offline Raven_2

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Question to Finns
« Reply #546 on: March 22, 2005, 12:46:48 AM »
to Fishu

>>Yeah sure... even if you haven't heard of the things, it doesn't mean it didn't happen, it was just covered up from the public.

Facts. Official documents. Links to books (printed not in Cold War period and not by anti-soviest sources).

For now you have only one "argument": "we, westerners, know that your nation is barbaric murderers. And only reason there is no evidience for this is because your government hide all of documentation."

There is no evediences, only your zealous belive in "russian barbarians". And that`s enough for you, I suppose.

PROVE YOUR WORDS!!!
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 12:50:40 AM by Raven_2 »

Offline bikekil

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Question to Finns
« Reply #547 on: March 22, 2005, 02:47:58 AM »
On Gen,

You'd like to sound like a well educated in Polish history, so let me quote you
 "Do not fool yourself with the ONLY Polish government sitting on their high stools in London and "electing" an idiot for the Prime Minister in exile."

Was it or was it not an only Polish goverment at the time? You can call Sikorki a fool, your choice, for me it's a hero who said what should be said, but i don't have to force you to feel the same. If i were him, i would declere a War and call Stalin an idiot.... but earlier then he did :D...

"Your government (before it fled abroad) and the Commander-in-Chief ( before Sikorski) were wise enough not to declare the war on the Soviet Union even when the armed border conflict between the Red Army and Polish border guards was in progress."

First of all, unfortunatelly for you i know pretty much about that attack because my grandpa fought with the Soviets there and i have to assure you - he was not in a border guard. It was a no less and no more then a war. Saying it was a kind of a border conflict is a sign of a great arrogance, great ignorance or... i won't insult you... or just a lack of knowledge :) but still, my first question is waiting for an answer - do you think that after Soviets attack our lands on 17.IX.1939 we had to declare the war with them? In my opinion Soviets already declared the was by attacking our lands without declering a war... soulnd cowardly to me if you ask me... but hey... they were sneaky snealy huh? ;) Ever heard of Ribbentrop - Molotow pact? Still saying it was a border conflict after which Soviets were supposed to het half of our lands? Isn't it too much for a border conflict? :) Now that's foolish

To answer the rest of it. If you read my earlier posts you would see me admitin the crimes on the Sovied POW's capturen in Poland. So you would finally find one Pole who admits it and saying "i'm sorry" about it :)
But hey, you are so well educated - you know better :)

Let me tell you how it is. There is a big issue about Polish - Ukrainian crimes. It's a probably topic for another thread but let me assure you. In Polish TV you will find a lot of documentary movies about the Polish crimes on Ukraine. I'm not a TV maniac but seen at least 10 during the last year. DOn't be fooled, Ukrainians executed and murdered a lot of Poles there too, but the point is - i would be more then happy if in Ukraine people could see that much about their crimes in that conflict (hard to call it other then that) as we in Poland see about ours in our TV. That's the great thiung IMO and i hope to see more of it, so i was not so arrogant dick who knonws only about the crimes done by his neighbours and not by his own people.
Other than that, i believe we can live in peace and friendship with Ukraine as it apeared lately... and which was as it apeared a salt in Russian eye, don't you think? ;)

As for Pilsudski, a lot of people in Poland call him a hero. I say it's pretty risky, but i also think he did a lot of good for Poland. It's hard to make people think and talk about his crimes on the Soviet POW's as the best know part of Polish- Bolshevick war here is a "Miracle over Vistula" where Red Army was stopped and pushed back. That's why we call him a hero... but you are right, we should also speak about his crimes and i hope we will, no matter what your take on Katyn is :)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 02:54:10 AM by bikekil »

Offline Fishu

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Question to Finns
« Reply #548 on: March 22, 2005, 07:16:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raven_2
For now you have only one "argument": "we, westerners, know that your nation is barbaric murderers.


For some of us, the death has been more welcome than becoming part of the USSR.
People doesn't avoid things for nothing.

Apparently China is still communistic and used to practice far the same policy as the russian communists.
Still does, although has opened up for the market far more than the USSR ever had before the collapse.

Yeah yeah, its just those "nutty chinese" right, nothing to do with the communism?

Offline Angus

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Question to Finns
« Reply #549 on: March 22, 2005, 07:37:54 AM »
Ahemm.
Given the wicked choice of camps or a bullet in the back, I think I'd pick the camps.

Now, camps are a tricky thing, and camp deaths get played around statistically a whole lot.
I will exclude the Nazi camps here, for many of those had a direct point of extermination.

Most common cause of death in camps is due to hunger and disease.
The cause for that is usually that the "campholder" can't cope with what he's got.
Even the US army experienced camp problems when rounding up German POW's in the Rhine advance, - within a matter of weeks thousands died of exposure/starvation/disease etc.
Camp inmates at Belsen-Bergen kept dying after the Brits took over, - there was already such a poor situation that for many there was nothing to be done.

So, Russians died in camps, be it Finnish, Polish, Germans or whatever.

That will never excuse the coldblooded systematic mass murders at Katyn.
Denial of a well established fact will not soften anything as well.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner MГ¶lders)

Offline lazs2

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Question to Finns
« Reply #550 on: March 22, 2005, 07:48:58 AM »
let me get this straight.... raven, you are comparing stalins shooting and working to death of 20 million people (some whos's only crime was maybe they were the wrong political party at one time) to..... to... The U.S. having "whites only" signs on drinking fountains in the south?  

you are also saying that there were no mass killings of anyone after '37?  what happened to all those captured axis soldiers after WWII.... they ones we had went home?   Maybe you feel that bombing the japs in a war... a war in which most japs would not surrender and fought to the last man...  maybe you feel that is the same as rounding up 20 million of your own and executing them or killing thousands of POW's after the war is long over?   Wasn't rape the normal modus operandi for russian soldiers in WWII?

This is the western "propoganda" that I have been fed.

lazs

Offline Boroda

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Question to Finns
« Reply #551 on: March 22, 2005, 08:03:56 AM »
Again - Red side disagrees on the scales of what dr. Goebbels called "purges". (It's intersting to know origin of some newspeak terms, isn't it?)

JFYI: most of the time when Stalin was in power there was no death penalty in USSR. It was "reintroduced" after the War, mostly for war criminals.

Soviet statistics on GULAG population is de-classified now. It's interesting. I said many times that Russia with it's 150 million population in 1999 had 2 million people in prisons and camps, while at the worst year of "Stalin's repressions", 1940, USSR with the same population had almost 2 times less prisoners. Is it one of the reasons West loves Yeltsin so much? :confused:

Offline lazs2

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Question to Finns
« Reply #552 on: March 22, 2005, 08:13:52 AM »
Ok... so how many political enemies has yeltsin executed so far?

lazs

Offline Fishu

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Question to Finns
« Reply #553 on: March 22, 2005, 08:17:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
JFYI: most of the time when Stalin was in power there was no death penalty in USSR. It was "reintroduced" after the War, mostly for war criminals.

USSR with the same population had almost 2 times less prisoners.


Why to uselessly kill good working force? just send them to the labor camps and work them to the death, much more useful.
Also makes the statistics look nicer.

Same with the prisoners, just send unwanted people somewhere where nobody wants to go and call the place as a rehabilitation camp or similar.

Doesn't make the things any better in my eyes.
There are many ways to kill and punish people, it is not always the direct action.

Offline mora

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Question to Finns
« Reply #554 on: March 22, 2005, 08:17:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
JFYI: most of the time when Stalin was in power there was no death penalty in USSR. It was "reintroduced" after the War, mostly for war criminals.


What happened to many of the officers of the red army and many other people in the '30s? They were shot without being sentenced?