Author Topic: Question to Finns (Read 29480 times)

Siaf__csf · « **Reply #375 on:** March 16, 2005, 02:26:18 AM »

Quote

The most corrupt media in are in democratic Italy. I suppose :-) Berluskoni owns all of them

And Putin controls all your mass media directly or indirectly. Whats the difference? There have been numerous alarming reports of the suppression of press in your country (a step back in development). You say there's no soviet era reports anymore. Did you just rewrite history or (perhaps) all that information comes still from the same source? Did your country somehow fix the errors in history _afterwards_? Come on. A fabricated lie is a fabricated lie and it stays written. It won't change no matter how pure your system is today (which it is not even now). You know of all the places I've traveled, Russia is the only place where I could bribe a police officer with $10. If I tried in most other countries they'd slam me in jail.

Raven_2 · « **Reply #376 on:** March 16, 2005, 02:49:18 AM »

to Siaf

>>And Putin controls all your mass media directly or indirectly. Whats the difference?

There is a lot of Putin critics on TV. All of them payed by Putin?

>>There have been numerous alarming reports of the suppression of press in your country (a step back in development).

Bah. And when Hodorkovskiy go to jail there were a lot of crying about bussiness opression in our country. But now europian police found links between Yukos and mafia in Italy. Italy police payed by Putin too?

>>Did your country somehow fix the errors in history _afterwards_? Come on.

Sure, I cannot trust to our court, but I *must* trust to westerners (that still treat Russia as an enemy - read USA military paradigm), that even have no evidence for their words, yes?

>>A fabricated lie is a fabricated lie and it stays written. It won't change no matter how pure your system is today (which it is not even now).

There a lot of books/films about Stalin tyrany, cold war, deportations and stuff. You can read GULAG by Solzhenicin (thats is a classic book). Now many of NKVD archives opens and all of it goes on TV. BTW, USA still keep they WWII archives in secret. Hiding something?

>>You know of all the places I've traveled, Russia is the only place where I could bribe a police officer with $10. If I tried in most other countries they'd slam me in jail.

Sure, in other countries prices much higher :-) But still you can bribe police officer in Europe for, say, 10.000$, i suppose.

You would deny this? Or maybe there is no drugdealing and Europe? All drugs (marihuana, for example) comes throught bribed customs officers and policemans. Think about it.

Bribe sums in Europe are higher, cause goverworkers are better paid, and that is the only reason that corruption level in Europe are lower that here. When our goverworkers would better paid, corruption level here drops significantly.

Siaf__csf · « **Reply #377 on:** March 16, 2005, 03:56:16 AM »

Contrary to your beliefs Raven, some people actually have ethics and follow rules. An attempt to bribe an official is a punishable act. Of course there are corrupt people also in the west, but nothing to the magnitude you guys have. That's one of the biggest reasons I refuse to travel there anymore, along with the crime. I feel I can't trust anyone down there.

bikekil · « **Reply #378 on:** March 16, 2005, 04:51:22 AM »

i have just one question - why on earth Poland is asking Russia for the documents about it that ase in the Russiuan archives by LONG YEARS and Russia is allways refusing? The reason is - "We read the file and there is nothing interesting in there so you don't have to see it".
Latest reason (from this month) is that investigation is over because Russia said it was not a crime of genocide.

Pretty good reason to hide an evidence and don't show it to anyone huh?

Sounds like a something to hide?

bikekil · « **Reply #379 on:** March 16, 2005, 05:00:44 AM »

oh... almost forgot - Soviets once counted it as a genocide... it was, when they said that Germans did it

Raven_2 · « **Reply #380 on:** March 16, 2005, 05:06:14 AM »

to bikekil

>>The reason is - "We read the file and there is nothing interesting in there so you don't have to see it".

LOL 8-) And why Poland don`t give to Russia files from their secret archive? Well, cause it *files from secret archive*, I suppose :-)

>>Sounds like a something to hide?

Well, if you ask country to share it`s secrets, I wouldn`t be surprise if they deny you. Man, it`s a SECRET FILES, nobody can just give it to another country.

And, bikekil, what do you think about Katyn? And what do you know about Plisdskiy shoting of red army PoWs?

>>oh... almost forgot - Soviets once counted it as a genocide... it was, when they said that Germans did it

They said that this were on of the many acts from German side of Poland genocide. Genocide is realized sequantial action, not individual act. So, if poles at Katyn were killed by German, then this were one of many acts of genocide. If poles in Katyn were killed by NKVD, then this were ... well, murder.

Nekto · « **Reply #381 on:** March 16, 2005, 05:37:09 AM »

bikekil

Try to use a plain logic:

1. Russian officials blame Soviet government for this crime.
2. Russian officials don't want to show a huge portion of archive documents.

Now your question:

Quote

Originally posted by bikekil
Sounds like a something to hide?

Any idea? Considering that they already blame Soviets and the same time they don't want to show important evidences - what is your conclusion?

Use common sense - they want to hide facts that condradict with their version of Soviet responsibility. Plain and simple. The more so they have valid reasons to throw dirt at Soviet past.

Maybe you know there were a revolutions, communistic movement and anti-communistic latent (and not latent) resistance, ideology struggle, perestroyka etc. It's hard to explain why the Russian gvt have reasons to blame the Soviet one if you are not aware about the Soviet history.

Raven_2 · « **Reply #382 on:** March 16, 2005, 05:42:10 AM »

to Nekto

Òû íå vsadnik, ÷àñîì? Íå ñôîë.ðó ïðèø¸ë? Èëè, ìîæåò, ñ îïåð.ðó?

Íî ëîãèêà ó òåáÿ ÷òî íàäî, ñíèìàþ øëÿïó :-) Ðóãàòü ñîâîê è èñõîäÿ èç ðóãàíè åãî æå äåéñòâèÿ è îïðàâäûâàòü :-)

bikekil · « **Reply #383 on:** March 16, 2005, 05:46:01 AM »

We are NOT asking about your secrest and documents about your secrets... i suppose we won't find any secret vodka formula or a documantation of a spaceship in your documants about Katyn right?

Isn't the bottom line if this like - We all will know who killed the POW's if you decide to show it to the world?
I think so. And i think we would already known it if it was done by Germans

Just my guess.

Sequential action you say? Ok, How about Ostaszkow, Starobielsk, Miednoje, Kozielsk - POW's from this camps were sent to Katyn and executed there - sounds sequential enought?

Of course those are not all of the polish POW camps

My grandpa who was fighting with Soviets after 17.09.1939 was captured and spent the winter 39-40 40km from Moscow in the summer uniform, living in a tent with other POW's and digging for peat used for heating in Moscow.
Then he was lucky, because due to agreement the Soviets and Germans made, he was exchanged for a Soviet soldoers prisoned by defending Polish Army who later was captired by Germans... and he was sent to Germany to work on a farm.

He was soo lucky he hadn't been schaduled to Syberia or Katyń!

Raven, you meant Pilsudski shooting Soviet POWs before WW2? Man, i've heard about it and i won't deny.
The worst thing that anyone can do is to defend the crimes with the lies

I'm not sure is Russia wanted any kind of documents or statements from Poland about it... and don't know if it's an issue for You or not... but if it is, i wish Poland will say the truth about it (if hadn't already).

But don't be surprised to see our anger if in exchange we will hear the same old sond about Katyn ok?

Like i said some years ago in discussions with Boroda - in last 1000 years our contries fought many wars about many stupid (or not) things.. many crimes were made on both sides.

Nekto · « **Reply #384 on:** March 16, 2005, 05:55:29 AM »

Raven_2 No, I came from âèô2íå. I am "dp" there. On this forum they don't allow you to use 2-letter name. Ãäå æå ýòî ÿ ðóãàë ñîâîê?

bikekil · « **Reply #385 on:** March 16, 2005, 05:59:01 AM »

Netko, when Russia decided to be a successor of a Soviet Empire, Russia should take a credit (and ownership) of evcerything that great about it and for EVERYTHING that Soviet empire was responsible for, including Katyn, so i expect from Russia to finally admit the crime and to say who was guilty (i don't care about being sorry and do not need an appology). Be sure that as long as it won't happened we will be talking about it, hoping that maybe someday successors of a Soviet Empire will say the truth about it

Oh Netko, it's not that hard to understand what it's all about after 40+ years of being a Soviet Empire slaves (as a country of course).

Fishu · « **Reply #386 on:** March 16, 2005, 06:06:35 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Raven_2
But now europian police found links between Yukos and mafia in Italy. Italy police payed by Putin too?

...I'm sure they've (mafia) paid to Berlusconi, that pain in the bellybutton guy.

Raven_2 · « **Reply #387 on:** March 16, 2005, 06:19:17 AM »

to bikekil

>>Raven, you meant Pilsudski shooting Soviet POWs before WW2? Man, i've heard about it and i won't deny.

Sure, but your government still keep silence about that.

>>But don't be surprised to see our anger if in exchange we will hear the same old sond about Katyn ok?

Now your court would investigate this. I`m sure that your country recive all needed files for that with time. At least, I wish so. There is no reason for me to fear the truth after it would found.

>>We are NOT asking about your secrest and documents about your secrets... i suppose we won't find any secret vodka formula or a documantation of a spaceship in your documants about Katyn right?

Secrets are not only inventions and stuff. If this documents remain secret even for most of Russia people, than why gvt should give it to another country? I think they must be declassified first and this is the main reason while you don`t recive all the files yet.

Raven_2 · « **Reply #388 on:** March 16, 2005, 06:21:15 AM »

to Fishu

>>...I'm sure they've (mafia) paid to Berlusconi, that pain in the bellybutton guy.

Say to me that this were a joke. Or you really think so? 8-|

Nekto · « **Reply #389 on:** March 16, 2005, 06:24:06 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by bikekil
Netko, when Russia decided to be a successor of a Soviet Empire...

To tell the truth i don't get it. It sounds like Russia came out of nowhere and decided to be a successor.

There was hot ideology struggle before the SU collapse, man. Are you were sleeping? Only territory is almost the same. But it's entirely another system now. Ideologocaly Russia is not a successor of the Soviet Union at all. On the contrary she is antogonistic to it. So, now she freely can 'admit' a crime and whatever but it's no more than a hypocrisy.