Question to Finns

[Raven_2]

to Nekto

>>Ideologocaly Russia is not a successor of the Soviet Union at all.

bikekil said the truth, Nekto. Russia formaly is successor of Soviet Union. He talk not about ideology, but about official status. Russia inherit all of USSR debts and so on.

Про мнение о СССР - показалось, видимо. А что такое виф2не?

[Nekto]

Raven_2 http://212.188.13.195/nvk/forum/6/0.htm Питомник милитаристов

I am talking about real things not formal ones. I know that she inherits all of USSR debts. Still ideologically new Russian 'elita' is enemy to the Soviet project, isn't it? Do we still on a way of building of socialism, eh? Maybe they and theirs gvt want to return things back? (joke)  That's what I am talking about. They interested in blackwashing our past to justify the post-soviet economic disaster. So their admitting of "soviet crimes" is just an empty phrase to me. And since they are have something to hide, it is that.

[Raven_2]

To all, who can read on russian.

This quote is about what harm the Munchen arrangment really did to the whole Europe. The main point is that by witnesses of nazi high-ranking officers (Keitel, Yodl - don`t know right spelling) at Nurnberg process, without Munchen agreement there were not possible for German to conquer CZ, France and most of other Europe. If there was not Munchen agreement, than nazi lose the war in 1938. Writen by William Shirer, author of "Rise and Fall of Third Reich", famous publicist. I didn`t find this piece in english.

«Была ли неизбежна англо-французская капитуляция в Мюнхене? Блефовал Адольф Гитлер или нет? Теперь мы знаем ответ на оба вопроса. Как это ни парадоксально, но в обоих случаях он отрицателен. Все генералы, близкие Гитлеру, которым удалось пережить войну, соглашаются с тем, что если бы не Мюнхенское соглашение, то фюрер напал бы на Чехословакию 1 октября 1938 года. Они полагают, что вопреки сомнениям Лондона, Парижа и Москвы Англия, Франция и Россия все равно оказались бы втянуты в войну.

И, что особенно важно, немецкие генералы в один голос заявляли, что Германия проиграла бы эту войну, причем в кратчайшие сроки. Аргументы защитников Чемберлена и Даладье — а их в то время было подавляющее большинство — насчет того, что Мюнхен спас Запад не только от войны, но и от поражения в войне, в частности, спас Лондон и Париж от полного разрушения в результате варварских бомбардировок Люфтваффе, опровергают по двум последним пунктам те, кто знал положение дел лучше остальных, а именно сами немецкие генералы, особенно те, кто фанатично поддерживал Гитлера до самого конца.

Ориентиром для этих генералов служил Кейтель, беспредельно преданный Гитлеру и всегда принимавший его сторону. Когда в Нюрнберге его спросили, какова была реакция немецких генералов на подписание Мюнхенского соглашения, он ответил:

«Мы были необычайно счастливы, что дело не дошло до военного столкновения, потому что... всегда полагали, что у нас недостаточно средств для преодоления чешских пограничных укреплений. С чисто военной точки зрения у нас не было сил брать штурмом чехословацкую оборонительную линию».

Военные эксперты союзников всегда считали, что немецкая армия прорвет рубежи чешской обороны. К показаниям Кейтеля, который утверждает, что все обстояло не так, нужно добавить свидетельство фельдмаршала Маннштейна, ставшего впоследствии одним из крупнейших и талантливейших немецких военачальников. Когда он в свою очередь давал показания в Нюрнберге (в отличие от Кейтеля и Йодля ему не грозил смертный приговор), то на вопрос о немецкой позиции по поводу Мюнхена ответил: «Если бы началась война, то ни наша западная граница, ни наша польская граница не могли быть защищены должным образом. Не вызывает сомнений, что если бы Чехословакия решилась защищаться, то ее укрепления устояли бы, так как у нас не было средств для их прорыва».

Йодль, считавшийся «мозговым трестом» ОКВ, пытаясь оправдаться в Нюрнберге, сформулировал это следующим образом: «Несомненно, что пять боевых дивизий и семь резервных, находившихся на нашей западной границе, которая представляла собой всего лишь огромную строительную площадку, не смогли бы сдержать натиска ста французских дивизий. С военной точки зрения это невозможно».

Если, как утверждают эти генералы, гитлеровской армии не хватало средств для прорыва чешских укреплений, если французские войска на западной границе значительно превосходили по численности немецкие, что делало ситуацию «непредсказуемой с военной точки зрения», если настроения среди генералов были столь мрачными, что даже начальник генерального штаба готовил заговор против Гитлера, чтобы избежать безнадежной войны, то почему об этом не знали генштабисты Англии и Франции? Или знали? А если знали, то как случилось, что главы правительств Англии и Франции принесли в Мюнхене в жертву жизненные интересы своих стран? В поисках ответа на эти вопросы мы сталкиваемся с тайной мюнхенского периода, которая до сих пор не раскрыта. Даже Черчилль, особенно скрупулезный в военных вопросах, едва касается этой темы в своих объемистых мемуарах». (Ширер У. Взлет и падение Третьего рейха. Т. 1. М.: Воениздат, 1991. С. 460–461.)

[Raven_2]

to Nekto

>>So their admitting of "soviet crimes" is just an empty phrase to me.

And admitting of victory in Great Patriotic War and one of the main roles in freeing world from faschism are empty phrases for you too?

If we inheirt all of Soviet glory, then we must accept all of USSR crimes, too. Sure, things changes, and USSR no more our present, but still USSR is our past. And we cannot deny this.

>>They interested in blackwashing our past to justify the post-soviet economic disaster.

I agree with this. But in any way we shouldn`t forget our past.

Уродам, которые историю искажают и сознательно марают в грязи противостоять надо, согласен. Но замалчивать факты только из-за боязни что их раздуют, что они станут ещё одним поводом для плевка - всё равно не следует. Если преступление было - надо признать. Если какая-то сволочь, типа Резуна, начнёт на его базе строить "далеко идущие выводы" следует просто дать ей по морде спокойным изобличением во лжи.

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Raven_2
And admitting of victory in Great Patriotic War and one of the main roles in freeing world from faschism are empty phrases for you too?

You know, as finnish, I don't see much difference between the communists and nazis. Both are something which could have passed the existance in the history.
Had the faschists occupied Finland, like they did to several countries and I would've known how the USSR "liberates" the countries, I would've rather chose not to be liberated and waited for the faschists to loose the war.
Couple more years is nothing compared to two decades of occupation.

Communistic times might seem different to you as a russian, but I'm sure it would been the same for german faschists, had the outcome been different and their government would've existed for two more decades (Ie. bitter truce).



What comes to Berlusconi, I don't know if hes in the mafia payrole, but I do know hes a corrupted a*hole.
In political mind I don't like him at all, the EU would be better without him.

[bikekil]

Originally posted by Raven_2
to Nekto

>>Ideologocaly Russia is not a successor of the Soviet Union at all.

bikekil said the truth, Nekto. Russia formaly is successor of Soviet Union. He talk not about ideology, but about official status. Russia inherit all of USSR debts and so on.

Про мнение о СССР - показалось, видимо. А что такое виф2не?

thanks Raven. that's exactly what i meant... it's not hard to understand when you are not afraid to do so

Netko, as you maybe noticed, i use two separate names - Russia and Soviets (Soviet empire, Soviet union) and i'm nowhere close saying that SU = Russia (ideologically or whatever).
I wasn't sleeping man. Before SU copllapsed, note which country refused to be a SU slave anymore?

Point is that SU refused to admit that a camp in KAtyn existed. People who were trying to investigate it or were just speaking about it were murdered or prisoned or send to whatever place on a daily basis here in Poland of course not by our history teachers After thos years of denaying Katyn and everything about it, who people, who lost his relatives should ask about the facts about results of investigations (if were any) and so on? Madagascar or Russia? Wake Up Russia is the only country that could help us to know everything about it.. and to admit that the crime were done. Of course Russia could also show by name, who's guilty.
Do you think we should ask anyone else then Russia about it? Who it could be then? Please enlight me. And don't talk about an ideology or whatever.
Russia can be a monarchy, republic, democracy or whatever Russia wants to be - it's none of my business. We are asking for investigating the truth, whatever was then name and ideology of the country who commited it.

As an example, Poland nowdays is paying for the loans we (commies and SU slaves) got in 60's or 70's. Nowdays we don't say and "paying our bills" is an empty phrase to us because it was communistic Poland who got the $ and we are not commies anymiore ... and btw, our coultry name changed since then.

Raven,
>> Sure, but your government still keep silence about that.

Are your goverment asked as for a statement or something like this? Just a question 'cuz i never heard about it so i *think* that that's the reason why we ain't waking up one day and saying it loud to the world. I hope that if you ask  for truth about it you will hear it. i really hope. I wish we take our resposibility for our past crimes.

>> Now your court would investigate this. I`m sure that your country recive all needed files for that with time. At least, I wish so. There is no reason for me to fear the truth after it would found.

I wish it will be that way. That or other way, our countries will have to find a way out of the situation anyway.... someday.

>> Secrets are not only inventions and stuff. If this documents remain secret even for most of Russia people, than why gvt should give it to another country? I think they must be declassified first and this is the main reason while you don`t recive all the files yet.

What we are afraid is, that another 50 years will pass and the documents will still be classified... now, there are still children of the murdered officers living and i'm sure it'd be nice for them to hear the full story.

[Siaf__csf]

Fishu I always thought Berlusconi IS the mafia.

[Raven_2]

to Fishu

>>You know, as finnish, I don't see much difference between the communists and nazis.

Populace of Karelia didn`t see any differ between finnish and nazis also. The only differ was that finnish were much more brutal.

>>Both are something which could have passed the existance in the history.

Both of this still exists. Communism in China/NK/Cuba/... and faschism in Latvia.

>>Had the faschists occupied Finland, like they did to several countries and I would've known how the USSR "liberates" the countries, I would've rather chose not to be liberated and waited for the faschists to loose the war.

LOL 8-) "to loose" is equal "to liberate" according to my dictionary. Maybe you mean "to lose"?

In any case, your government chose to attack USSR with/like nazi in 1941. You country made an act of agression to Soviet and there was retribution for this.

>>Communistic times might seem different to you as a russian, but I'm sure it would been the same for german faschists

...after anihilation of all jews and slavic people. But, I assume, you think that this is not so bad, yes? You only care about finnish.

So, you think that German invasion was, generally, a good thing and nazi weren`t such a bad fellows, yeah? They only tried to stop "communist invasion in Europe", yes?

[Raven_2]

to bikekil

>>Are your goverment asked as for a statement or something like this?

[!] Eurika.

It`s seems to me, that here in Russia most of the people really don`t understand what the problem is. As I can see from your posts, the only reason for Poland to know about Katyn is to know truth, names of the deads and so on. But many of Russia people think that the reason is to blame Russia, to ask for reparations and so on. So, maybe this is why our gvt so unhelpfull to Poland.

And this is the main reason for arguments like "They don`t excuse for Pilsudski then why should we excuse for Katyn?", but no excuses needed, only truth. There is an awful misunderstanding between our countries :-( Really sad thing :-(

[Nekto]

Originally posted by Raven_2
And admitting of victory in Great Patriotic War and one of the main roles in freeing world from faschism are empty phrases for you too?

Yes. I think the current government has nothing to do with the Victory. It's just  a hypocrisy when they use it for a patriotic purposes to 'unite nation' and so on.

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Raven_2

Populace of Karelia didn`t see any differ between finnish and nazis also. The only differ was that finnish were much more brutal.

>>Both are something which could have passed the existance in the history.

Both of this still exists. Communism in China/NK/Cuba/... and faschism in Latvia.


LOL 8-) "to loose" is equal "to liberate" according to my dictionary. Maybe you mean "to lose"?

In any case, your government chose to attack USSR with/like nazi in 1941. You country made an act of agression to Soviet and there was retribution for this.


So, you think that German invasion was, generally, a good thing and nazi weren`t such a bad fellows, yeah? They only tried to stop "communist invasion in Europe", yes?

1. Yeah, for the finnish carelian people too? or perhaps for the foreign people who in the russian history faced "genocide" by being transfered away from the war zone as a potential risk of desants & saboteurs (something practiced by about everyone).
Makes me chuckle to hear it's a "genocide" when certain type of people were moved to a camp. By those stantards communists were nothing but genociders.

2. What does the existance have to do with anything? I said that the fascshists and communists could've passed the history, aka not exist at all, aka never invented.

3. I mean "liberate", which means that when a country is "liberated" of its oppressors or occupation forces.
Like the western allies liberated french from the german oppression/occupation forces.
The USSR "liberated" the baltic countries of the germans, however when it is about the baltic countries, I tend to use the word "liberate" in quotes, in a sarcastic manner.
The thing is, they were still occupied, just the oppressor changed and promoted itself as the liberator of the country.
In the same way the USSR was to liberate the finnish working class from the corrupted government (working class, who turned out to resist the "liberation"). Liberation of the working class, the sweet propaganda of the communists back then.

Again, what has the continuation war to do with this?
I was talking about a scenario, where Finland would been like Poland or the other baltic states, which were occupied by the germans and then "liberated" of the oppressors by the USSR.


4. Where did I say the german invasion was a good thing? or that they weren't that bad fellas?
Didn't I just tell you that the faschists and communists would been better not to exist at all in the first place.

But they werent all that much different from Stalin's communism.
Stalin was an oppressor, a cruel one at that. So was Hitler. Both wanted to expand their borders and increase their influence.
Both faced an assassination attempt by their own countrymen.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Nekto
The problem is that it's not a proven fact.  How do you think was it proven? Was there a trial or so?
 

It's "not proven" only in the mind of a few die-hards that cannot accept documented truth.

Look, there was an investigation at the time the graves were discovered. Photographs were taken, forensic evidence was studied. The Germans even allowed POWs from the Allied countries to investigate the scene.  You many want to investigate the reports of Capt. Stanley Gilder (British Army), Lt.-Col. Frank Stevenson (South African Army), Lt.-Col. John H. Van Vliet (US Army), Capt. Donald B. Stewart (US Army), if you can find them.

Several reputable people/angencies investigated the freshly-opened graves at Katyn.

Then there there's the evidence of the diaries and letters. They all end the same time, a time when the prisoners were in Soviet custody.

Then there is the admission by Yeltsin, with some accompanying documents, that the NKVD killed those Poles.

This was confirmed by Gorbachev and Putin.

Now the latest round of admission from the Chief Military Prosecutor.

Only those willing to lie to themselves can deny the evidence. The withholding of 2/3 of the Katyn documents by the Russians right now points to culpability. What can be secret about the Poles deaths 65 years later?

As I said, any fair appraisal results in the inescapable conclusion that the NKVD killed the Poles on Stalin's order.

[bikekil]

Well Raven, there is a whole bunch of psycho politicians in Poland and i can't guarantee what ideas they will come up with in future, but if our president or goverment will ask for any kind of "reperations" for a Katyn crime, just nuke us
Still hope none of them is that much of a MF ;-)

Hopefully once day our nations will hear what they need to hear. really wish

[Nekto]

Originally posted by bikekil
Do you think we should ask anyone else then Russia about it? Who it could be then? Please enlight me.  

Ask Germany for example. There are two accused guys - Germany and USSR, you know. Above I gave you a hint why Russian gvt don't want to show the documents but you are saying it's not your business. Why do you ask then?

[Raven_2]

to Fishu

>>2. What does the existance have to do with anything? I said that the fascshists and communists could've passed the history, aka not exist at all, aka never invented.

Uhm. I mistranslate this.

>>Didn't I just tell you that the faschists and communists would been better not to exist at all in the first place.

Well, maybe. Who knows? There a LOT of people in Russia, who thinks that communist revolution was a failure.

to Toad

>>It's "not proven" only in the mind of a few die-hards that cannot accept documented truth.

All truth are in archives. Do you read them? I not. And nobody in Russia too. Yes, maybe NKVD killed them. But this is not proven.

>>Then there is the admission by Yeltsin
>>This was confirmed by <...> Putin.
>>admission from the Chief Military Prosecutor.

Well, if you ignore my words, I would be ignore all of your Katyn-related crying. None of them directly admit Katyn. Only Gorby did. And there still no official decission about Katyn.

BTW, did you know than there were more than 145.000 deaths in Okinava in 1945? What the reason? Ouh, of cause not murdering by humanistic US troops. They died by age, yes? :-)

Also, there are many japan evidiences that US navy raped japan girls. But all of this are insollence lie for you, I suppose...

to bikekil

>> but if our president or goverment will ask for any kind of "reperations" for a Katyn crime, just nuke us :-)

:-) I`ve already transfered this to Putin :-)