Question to Finns

[Boroda]

Originally posted by mora
Michel Brun, now there's a source... He's just one out of many KAL007 conspiracy theorists out there.

At least he tried to compare timings and other documents from different sides. The picture is very complicated. I said that his conclusion should be taken with a grain of salt.

Originally posted by mora
Not any more or less credible than this one.

Interesting. Thanks! Will post it on Russian forums!

[Boroda]

Mora, "Russian documents" on that site are a true revelation!!!!

"Maj. Osipovich, pilot of a Dry bottle 15 (SU-15)"

[Toad]

The CVR and the DFDR were given to the ICAO by the Russian Federation. Any communictions received by KAL 007's radio are there. There are none in the transcript from the fighters, Soviet Air Defense or Soviet Air Traffic control. It was murder, pure and simple.

 Five Soviet Top-Secret Memos

Memos In 1992, Russian president Boris Yeltsin disclosed five top-secret memos dating from late 1983, within weeks of the downing of Korean Air Lines Flight 007. These memos were published in the Soviet news magazine, Izvestia, Number 228, October 16, 1992, shortly after being made public....

They are highly significant in showing the attitude of the Soviet leadership towards the US, the UN, its International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) and this flight. ....

.... Another interesting fact from these memos is an acknowledgement, contrary to public statements, that the Soviet interceptors made no attempt to contact KAL 007 on the international emergency radio frequency nor did they fire tracers or warning shots.


The fourth memo, to Soviet Premier, Yuri Andropov, states clearly that the Soviets sought to deceive the US and Japan as to the location of the downed plane by performing “Imitation search efforts in the Sea of Japan…” The final memo, also to Andropov, confirms that the Soviets intentionally deceived the US and Japan as to the fact that they had retrieved the Black Boxes from KAL Flight 007 and that they had decided consciously to keep them secret from the rest of the world.

The memos are there on that site.

Now, deny, deny, deny. The truth is there for you. You have been shown how to do your own research and find it.

There's no real point in arguing with you guys; you are drowning in your own lies and love it.

The point is to make sure the REST of the world and the readers KNOW you are lying once again.

You may not read the links, you may discredit the links ("Yeltsin was a traitor!" heard that one about katyn and expect it about KAL 007). Your denial won't change the truth.

Readers that have grown up in free societies will read the evidence and will KNOW you lie. That's the point.

Enjoy.

[Toad]

Boroda... dream all you like. As I said, one of the primary reasons for RC missions was to plot your air defenses.

The data was used to plan ingress routes. Let's just say we were pretty confident that given ALL the passive and active options available to our strike forces the targets would be hit.

Now aren't you glad it never came to that? Aren't you glad the Red Army stayed behind the "Iron Curtain"? Because if it had ever rolled out into Europe, we'd have had to play the game to the end.

[Nekto]

Originally posted by Toad When a fighter shoots down a civilian airliner that he could have forced to land.. that's murder.

Yeah... But that's works for Russian only... When USA shoots down civilian air plane then it's guess what?... that's heroic achievement!

Medals of Honor While issuing notes of regret over the loss of human life, the U.S. Government has to-date not admitted any wrongdoing or responsibility in this tragedy, nor apologized, but continues to blame Iranian hostile actions for the incident. The men of the Vincennes were all awarded combat-action ribbons. Commander Lustig, the air-warfare coordinator, even won the navy's Commendation Medal for "heroic achievement," his "ability to maintain his poise and confidence under fire," enabled him to "quickly and precisely complete the firing procedure."

http://www.answers.com/topic/iran-air-flight-655

[Holden McGroin]

Us State Department Bulletin Oct 1988
In the case of the Iran Air incident, the damage caused in firing upon #655 was incidental to the lawful use of force. The Government of Iran should not have allowed gunboats to attack our vessels and aircraft. That government also should not have allowed a passenger airline to fly over a battle zone-especially not unless it was equipped and prepared to respond to our Navy's repeated warnings.

The commander of tbe U.S.S. Vincennes evidently believed that his ship was under imminent threat of attack from a hostile aircraft, and he attempted repeatedly to identify or contact the aircraft before taking defensive action. Therefore, the United States does not accept legal responsibility for this incident and is not paying "reparations," a word which implies wrongdoing and is often associated with wartime activities.

Instead, the President has decided to make an ex gratia payment as a humanitarian gesture to the families of the individuals who were on #655. Most of the individuals who tragically and innocently perished in this incident were Iranians. But people from six other countries also reportedly died: India, Italy, Kuwait, Pakistan, the United Arab Emirates, and Yugoslavia. We intend to make no payments to or through the Government of Iran but, instead, to the families of the victims. We may work directly, however, with the governments of the other countries involved, depending on the need for and propriety of such contacts.

Precedents for Payments

An ex gratia payment of this type is consistent with the past practice of the United States and of other nations, with the exception of the Soviet Union.

Currently the United States is discussing with the Government of India ex gratia payment for the death of an Indian fisherman killed by gunfire from the U.S.S. Carr in November 1987.

In 1973 Israel shot down a Libyan Boeing 727 airliner that mistakenly flew over the Israeli-occupied Sinai, killing 106 passengers. We are informed that Israel made an ex gratia payment to Libya.

During the 1967 war, Israeli aircraft attacked the U.S.S. Liberty, killing a number of U.S. servicemen and causing extensive damage. Israel maintained tbat the attack was a justifiable accident but, nonetheless, paid the United States ex gratia compensation.

In 1954 the People's Republic of China (P.R. C.) shot down a U. K. -registered Cathay Pacific plane in the vicinity of Hainan Island, which was en route from Bangkok to Hong Kong. The P.R.C. apologized and indicated that its pilots had mistakenly identified the plane as a military aircraft from Taiwan. The P. R. C. paid compensation to the United Kingdom to be disbursed to the victims' families. Among the victims were six U.S. nationals.

In 1946 an unarmed U.S. transport plane en route from Austria to Italy was shot down by Yugoslav forces. Five U.S. nationals were killed. The Government of Yugoslavia expressed its regret but rejected any responsibility to pay compensation. Yugoslavia did state, however, that it wished "to express its sympathy toward the innocent families of the perished airmen" and to pay lump sums to each of the five closest families. The United States accepted this payment.
 

[Toad]

How typical of the Russian denialistas to try to divert the discussion from what THEY did on to what the US did. Want to talk about the Vincennes? Start another thread. Make it a "comparison" thread.

That way, you can compare the Soviets shooting down an airliner that had been visually ID'd as a passenger jet by a Soviet fighter pilot, during peacetime, without any attempts to warn off the airliner with a US incident in a combat zone where ships were being attacked, involving an airliner that had not been visually ID'd but was on the radar and where REPEATED attempts were made to warn the airliner away.

You guys are so very Stalinist; it's comical.

[Nekto]

I'm sorry.

So it's on topic when you are  talking about  the Korean Boeing here in the "Question to Finns" thread.

PS: You start call us names. No sensible arguments again? You shoot down civil airliner that flew in international air-corridor and within Iranian territory, thousands miles from USA.  See the difference, sir?

[Toad]

Originally posted by Nekto
You hoot down civil airliner that flew in international air-corridor and within Iranian territory, thousands miles from USA.  See the difference, sir?

You want to embarass yourselves again? Fine. It's only going to make you look like barbarians again. Here you go:

The commander of tbe U.S.S. Vincennes evidently believed that his ship was under imminent threat of attack from a hostile aircraft, and he attempted repeatedly to identify or contact the aircraft before taking defensive action.

This ship was in an area where "hot" engagements were actually taking place. What battles were fought near Kamchatka in the preceding days?

Soviet air defense has to monitor Tokyo Control. They had to hear the climb request, the approval and see the subsequent change in altitude of KAL 007. Why did they not attempt to contact KAL 007 on Tokyo frequency?

Instead, the President has decided to make an ex gratia payment as a humanitarian gesture to the families of the individuals who were on #655. Most of the individuals who tragically and innocently perished in this incident

What humanitarian gesture did the Soviets make?  ummmm NONE.

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Nekto
So it's on topic when you are  talking about  the Korean Boeing here in the "Question to Finns" thread.

Apparently he hasn't been the only one bringing it off the topic..
It was off the topic a long ago and then theres been different topics by many, including your country mates.

PS: You start call us names. No sensible arguments again?

Maybe it is just because some of you really are in denial, in which case at least the 'denialist' accusation becomes a fact.

Stalinist.. I don't know, although partly it can be true, what comes to the ignorance.

[Nekto]

I feel as if I speak to dinosaurs.

[Toad]

Well, as you are a Stalinist-era "apologist" dinosaur, you should feel you are a dinosaur when you speak with other Stalinist-era "apologist" dinosaurs.

So, this is perfectly natural.

[Nekto]

I have not the pleasure of knowing any Stalinist-era "apologist" dinosaurs I am talking about you, diehard coldwar relicts. Face it

[Toad]

You don't know one?

Look in a mirror. Or look at Boroda or Raven.

[Boroda]

Toad, Korean Boeing was a valid target. If it was a 747 and not RC-135.

Soviet pilot couldn't hesitate: the invader crossed several hundreed kilometers of Soviet land, including the key defence structures of the Far East. He was protecting his land, and he in no way was a coward shooting down an airliner because he crapped his pants afraid of possible attack on a ship half a world away from his country.

Yor version that Soviet interceptor didn't contact KAL007 on "international radio frequency" can be only interpreted as "he failed to get in gontact - Koreans (if they were Koreans) didn't answer". He unloaded his cannon ammo to attrackt their attention.

In late-70s another KAL plane "mixed up" East and West directions, and landed on a frozen lake in the North. When possible - they are landed. When not - sorry.

I want to point at the grade of moral corruption of the regime that sends civilian airliners as target-drones for air defence. It is something unthinkable.

Toad, MAD became possible only in early-80s. US had B-52s on 24/7 "combat patrol" until 70s. They were ready to penetrate into Soviet airspace on routes discovered by your "peacefull missions" with one goal: to burn millions, millions of people, who's only fault was being Russian, Ukrainian,. Tatar - Soviet.

Go find something about "Drop Shot" attack plan. It openly stated that USSR doesn't plan aggression against US or Europe, and the war is "preventive". According to that plan - 8 million Soviet citizens were supposed to be killed in first 30 days. US deliberately have chosen genocide as an instrument of military and political struggle. Anyway, according to Drop Shot estimations - Soviet Army could occupy Europe and gain access to Indian Ocean in no more then 6 months. American airforce main bases in UK were estimated to survive for no more then 60 days before being wiped out by Soviet nuclear weapons. All this only as a result of American "preventive" first strike against USSR.

Your politicians always understood that USSR wants to be left alone, and will never start a global war because of intentions to "enslave" othr nations. Anyway - they planned nuclear genocide of Soviet people. They relied on genocide, because American nukes couldn't make any significant damage to Soviet Army. And they knew that USSR can't be defeated by the power of weapons, so they simply decided to wipe out Soviet cities to make us surrender to the aggression.

Face it, mr. "dove of peace". You were searching for weak spots for US nuclear bombers to slaughter millions of innocent people. Think of it before you go to bed.