All Union Brothers and Sisters

[JB88]

Originally posted by Bodhi
Toad,


As for unions, the ALPA union is a FAR cry different thatn the Teamsters, UAW, USW, and ALWA are.  Those organisations are nothing short of organised racketeering outfits that prey on workers salaries to support their existence.  When these same workers struggle to keep afloat, their union hierarchy spends millions to build club houses and amenities available only to union leaders.  

in that case, lets get rid of management.  you know, the ones who do the same thing, but actually give themselves pay raises.
(often in the millions per year, per individual)

excessive practices on either side can grow quickly discusting.

[Rolex]

It's very fair to say that different times, different people and local conditions make a difference in the union question. Some management does stink and some unions stink. Unions that put a company's feet to the fire for illegal employment or safety practices are good guys. Those that think a union's sole pupose is to extort money in any way possible from a company making a good faith effort to stay in business and create goods, services and jobs are bad guys.

As any market matures, earnings drop. When you're working in a 5% (if you're good and lucky) profit industry, unions and management have to be flexible and creative to keep the business alive. The alternative is the business, and eventually the industry, will transform or move. It's hard to reconcile being a free market advocate in a non right-to-work state.

Not every business owner or manager gets up in the morning and drives to work thinking of how they can screw the employees today. Business owners and stockholders that put their money at risk have every right to expect unions to act fairly in the interest of the employee... and the employer.

[added]
An awful lot went on leading up to the closing of the St. Louis factory that I didn't go into. All of it good faith efforts to get production out the door, not reduce wages or benefits.

[Toad]

Bodhi, I'm not going to defend unions. I'm sure as hell not going to defend management.

I think my statement "The only thing worse than a union is no union" pretty well states the case.

For example, you do realize that ALL of the non-Union DAL workers benefited from ALPA being on the property right?

Many of the things we worked to get were "passed on" to the non-union troops. Family Care Savings being one, ESOP being another, increased medical benefits.. I could go on, but I think you realize what I'm saying and know that it is true.

However, AGAIN, don't take this to mean that I think all Unions are great or even that DAL ALPA was great. They aren't and it wasn't.

They're just better than being totally at the mercy of management.

Anyone can say what they will, but when there is no countervailing force to Management eventually, Management will deliberately take advantage of the workers. Even if the company is all sweetness and light to begin with.

Eventually, someone gets in power that just can't control his urge to f*** (have intercourse with) anyone that is powerless to stop him from doing so.

It's all there in the history of US corporations.

[Urchin]

Originally posted by oboe
Why is he your hero Grun?   Because he stood up to the union's demands to the point of moving the factory away?   Or because he had enough of a conscience to leave his career after having to do something he found so distasteful?

Because he called the Unions bluff and moved the factory.  If Grun could find some way to re-legalize slave labor, he'd do it.  Hella profits in slave labor.

[Urchin]

You guys do realize that the argument is pretty much moot.  In a couple decades (at most), the Republicans will have successfully crushed any Union still standing, along with demolishing the minimum wage, and any other "entitlement" legislation they can get their hands on.  The stratification of American society has been growing since the 70's, but it is picking up pace like gangbusters now.  

Lets get some more tax cuts!  Well, as long as they are only for people making more than 60 grand a year that is.  The stupid sniveling "poor" people don't put enough back into society.. I say they need a big tax hike!

[Sled]

I sure know how to polarize people.

Bottom line? You have to have a Ying to have a Yang. Can you imagine the world with ONLY a Democratic party? Or ONLY a Repuplican party! YIKES and double YIKES!:eek:


As for paying Union Dues. I'll give you $5000.00 if you give me $200.00. (3% + monthly in my local) Any takers?? If so, you shouldn't have much problem with Union dues.

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by SLED

As for paying Union Dues. I'll give you $5000.00 if you give me $200.00. (3% + monthly in my local) Any takers?? If so, you shouldn't have much problem with Union dues.

Yep, you'll get the extra 5k, and you won't work any harder, and will probably get 4 extra breaks a day along with a grievance board to complain to if you get in trouble for drinking on the job....

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Urchin
Because he called the Unions bluff and moved the factory.  If Grun could find some way to re-legalize slave labor, he'd do it.  Hella profits in slave labor.

We dont need slave labor anymore

We have Mexicans.
Unions time has come and gone.

there once was a time when Unions were a good thing. Now they are more a detriment to our society as a whole.

From my observation the current union worker is vastly over paid and underworked. Which in tunr ends updriving up the costs on almost everything we buy from clothes to houses.

[Urchin]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
We dont need slave labor anymore

We have Mexicans.
Unions time has come and gone.

there once was a time when Unions were a good thing. Now they are more a detriment to our society as a whole.

From my observation the current union worker is vastly over paid and underworked. Which in tunr ends updriving up the costs on almost everything we buy from clothes to houses.

Multinational Monitor: What percentage of the U.S. workforce is unionized?
Kate Bronfenbrenner: Just over 13 percent. The private sector unionization rate is 8.5 percent. Union density in the public sector is 37 percent.

Actually hell....  One biased source.

Here is another biased source , although this one does not deal so much with Unions as with inequality in general.

And...ANOTHER whoopeeed BIASED SOURCE! .  

Where is Fox News?!  Someone call in Fox News!  I need some FAIR and BALANCED reporting on this issue!  All these dirty commie pinko studmuffins writing stories that AREN'T TRUE!!

[Sled]

JB88 said

and the sign said the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls...

I thought, "The words of the Prophets are written on the Studio walls"

[Lazerus]

Originally posted by JB88
lazerus.  running and hiding is nothing more than BnZ BBcm.  get back here and fight!

DWEEB!  

Lemme put up this runhun first.

Last September 3, (1991) a fire broke out near the deep-fat fryer in Imperial’s chicken-processing plant and spread quickly through the one-story building. The plant had no windows and no sprinkler or fire alarm system. And workers who got to the unmarked fire exits found some of them locked from the outside.

Why is a union needed to avoid this situation? I'm pretty sure this factory was in severe violation of federal safety codes. The inspectors that allowed this place to remain open and operate should be tried for manslaughter.

Originally posted by JB88

in that case, lets get rid of management. you know, the ones who do the same thing, but actually give themselves pay raises.
(often in the millions per year, per individual)

excessive practices on either side can grow quickly discusting(disgusting).

I agree that excessive salaries for upper level executives is a serious problem in many companies that put an undue strain on those companies ability to compete, just as excessive salaries for unionized employees due the same.

How to change the upper level problem while staying inside the ideology of a capitalistic system is an interesting question.

The same question applied to the draining of a companies profitability by the unions is a little easier. The only problem is, will upper level execs then absorb the freed up monies in their own salaries, or use the capital to become more competetive. The open market should take care of that.

Ultimately, the ideal would be a union that looks after the employees and the company. Making unions only able to be formed on a more local level might be a step in the right direction.

[JB88]

honestly lazerus...i think that it begins with social change.  when the pain of being criminal exceeds the pain of reducing ones requirements for good service to thier fellow men.

we still havent had a very good debate about this issue as a society, (imho)  but i think that it would go miles towards at least bringing it into check if we did.

we should be prosecuting white collar criminals for breaking the law just as often as we do with blue collar folks...

when there is enough public outcry...things change...of course, they grow bad again and have to be pruned ...eventually.

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by JB88
honestly lazerus...i think that it begins with social change.  when the pain of being criminal exceeds the pain of reducing ones requirements for good service to thier fellow men.

we still havent had a very good debate about this issue as a society, (imho)  but i think that it would go miles towards at least bringing it into check if we did.

we should be prosecuting white collar criminals for breaking the law just as often as we do with blue collar folks...

when there is enough public outcry...things change...of course, they grow bad again and have to be pruned ...eventually.

wow, that is the most intelligent thing I have ever heard you say....


Who are you and what have you done with JB88.

[JB88]

lol.

still here.  : )

[Lazerus]

Bohdi got off a reply before I could regain consciousness and climb back into my chair:p